----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009
10:47 AM
Subject: Slide loading- comments
/
Bob & Group...
Bruce Richards' comments on our last string
of messages on slide loading including the note from Peter Morse.
Notes between us follow:
Thanks Gordy, very interesting. It does sound like Peter
isn't including
the line hand "slide" in his description of slide
loading, in which case it
is simply drag.... Personally, I can't see
any advantage to slide loading,
don't see how it would make any cast
smoother, or more powerful... Seems to
me that simply moving the line
hand back to the reel a little sooner so
both hands can move forward
together makes a lot more sense, and would be
more
effective. That's what most good casters do.
Do you see ways slide
loading can improve
anything?
Bruce
Scientific Anglers/3M
4100 James Savage
Rd.
Midland, MI 48642 USA
Tel:
989-496-1113
Fax: 989-496-3374
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bruce....
The only thing I can see
as an advantage is that as a matter of style it
might make casting a
tad more comfortable for some casters. I think, too,
that some
might cast a little more smoothly by using it. ..... Again, a
matter of
style NOT SUBSTANCE. I really think casters who use it
have
started with it without realizing what the dickens they are really
doing.
Even Joan, who first described it, tells it that
way.
I had posed that little "quiz" on the
subject to
all 189 of the folks in the Group and then distilled
the
answers. Interesting to get those Group
opinions.
Gordy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Gordy,
I agree entirely. I suppose some could find slide loading
(terribly name
for the motion) "comfortable", I really don't see any
possible physical
advantages. They would be better off learning not to
use this crutch. But
as long as some advocate perceived advantages
there will be those who try
to adopt it.
Interesting that the suggested advantages of smoothness
(no
explanation for why), and increased rod load (probably just the
opposite is
true) are very poorly explained, and there is a good
reason!
We just need to continue to challenge things like this so they don't
become
accepted, if something can't be explained logically, there is
most likely a
problem...
Very interesting discussion though, and
allows us to reinforce the really
important things about a good
cast.
Bruce
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bruce now places his comments in
the answers to our little quiz on slide loading. Each of his
comments are preceeded by ****** and are in
bold red italics.
My comments in blue
italics:-
QUIZ ON SLIDE LOADING...... RESULTS
:-
1.) Most thought it didn't really increase distance
for most casters. A
couple of answers included the caveat that it
might if it was used as a
caster's own style.
2.) Many felt
it was an issue of style, not a fault. Some said it might
mask a
fault.
*****Slide loading as
described would slightly reduce the ability to
straighten the line with
a "drag" before a cast. While probably not a
fault, certainly not
something that would improve a cast..
Agree.
G.
3.) Most thought it could be a
fault if done incorrectly.
4.) Almost all felt tht it could
smooth out the cast if done properly with
good timing. No one
said it couldn't, but some said that they just
didn't
know.
*****Has anyone
explained how ?, I still don't see this....
In the event we
have a caster who is applying a sudden spike of power at the start, then I
can see giving back a little line as the line hand is moved toward the rod
hand could moderate this and result in a smoother application of
power. If that were the case, it would be
masking a fault .
G.
5.) Half thought that it could
result in shortening the stroke or rod arc
if done
improperly.
*****As described,
could shorten stroke, not arc. If arc is shortened that
would be due to
creep.
Yes.... since creep is a rotational
defect, it would use up some available rod arc.
G.
6.) No one figured that it would
really increase the total rod load. One
answered, "not
much".
******If anything it
could reduce rod load due to reduced
line
straightening...
7.) Most
agreed that slide loading could distribute the same load over
a
different time interval.
*****I don't see how the time interval would be changed. The
loop will
straighten at the same time as it would without SL and that
is what
dictates when the next cast starts. I don't see how SL would
change when
unload happens. If load starts and stops at the same time
either way,
interval remains the same..
By time interval, I
meant the timing of the application of power / load. NOT the timing
(cadence) of the cast. I agree that it won't change the
timing of the unfurling of the loops and therefore not that of the
cast. G.
8.)
Opinion was divided almost equally on whether this would be
helpful.
9.) All said that a well informed Master should
be familiar with it.
*****Agreed.
10.) No
one said that we should be teaching it to our advanced students,
though
some said we should do that if asked.
*****As long as the student was told that benefits are
unlikely...
11.) No one felt that we
should criticize and/or eliminate its use if we
found that one of our
advanced students was slide loading.
*****Never criticize, but I'd sure try to get rid of it in a
student who
was striving for
distance.
12.) Opinion was almost
equally divided as to whether the term, SLIDE
LOADING, was a
misnomer.
*****Since it causes
no loading, and potentially slightly decreases it
during the stroke,
I'd sure call it something
else.
13.) Everybody except one
agreed that it would probably remain a
controversial subject.
Some pointed out that this was OK.
*****Agreed....
Gordy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Raffaele Mascaro. (For those of you
who might not know, Raf is one of our International CBOG's from Italy)
:-
Hi Gordy,
Happy New Year from Italy
!
I like the Peter's description "leading with the butt". This is
something
particularly used in Italy. As you know most of the italian
fly anglers
like fishing with short rod and ultra-light flylines
(mainly DT2 or DT3),
rods are fast and mainly tip action. Sometime to
make a longer cast there
is the need of "leading with the butt".
Rotation is at the end of a very
long stroke , rod hand is well behind
the shoulder in the backcast ..
If everything is done properly, at the
end of backcast , the natural
position of line hand is very close to
the ring and the rod is almost
parallel to the ground. I don't have
technical data to support but you can
feel the flyline pulling the line
hand and in this way the waste of energy
looks almost zero.
On the
forward cast again the rotation will be at the end of the stroke.
When
student ask for this style I explain them to be concentrated on
the
butt section and to pull it as long as possible. A good example is
if the
feeling of pulling away an elastic band from a fixed
support.
Another good exercise is to try to cast only with
hands...tiring but
effective to keep energy in something can't load
like a rod. If I remember
well I showed some casts to Jim during the
last Conclave.
Best Regards
Raf
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Raf ... I agree fully (as does Bruce Richards) that
this is a very effective technique.. Some call it
"dragging". Others call it "pulling".
I look at it as a translational movement of the fly rod
prior to rotation (rod arc.). It has been well demonstrated that
using this translation to delay rotation can be very
effective.
I really like your word picture and the concept of how it feels
!
Since you don't describe any movement of the line hand back
toward the rod hand as this is done, I wouldn't consider it Slide
loading.
Have a great New Year !!!
Gordy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
From Bruce Richards:
Agreed, typical "pulling" cast...
Bruce
Scientific
Anglers/3M
4100 James Savage Rd.
Midland, MI 48642
USA
Tel: 989-496-1113
Fax: 989-496-3374
`