Walter & Group...
I look at higher learning as the study of the various opinions of experts followed by deep consideration of one opinion in the light of others. This learning isn't complete until each Master balances these and comes up with an opinion of his /her own based on logic.
Having done that on each controversial subject, the Master is able to answer his students' question with a measured amount of information based on his student's capacity to handle it. The candidate, will be able to easily answer the examiners' questions while being confident that whatever the answer it can be followed up with logical reasons to support the opinion.
We all know that student casters learn in one or more of three ways. 1.) Seeing (visual) 2.) Hearing (Auditory) and 3) Feeling (Kinaesthetic). To these three I'll add a fourth : 4.) Understanding (Cognative). This last one comes in to play more often as the Master teaches CCI's and advanced casters to improve their skills and background knowledge. Also... the teaching of fly casting to an, "engineer type" or any student who has a thirst for the "why" and "how".
To this end, I've chosen a couple of messages which may challenge your thoughts about slide loading ( a very controversal subject since Joan Wulff first described it in 1987.)
....just at the point where you may finally feel that you have it down "pat" !
Gordy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FASTEN YOUR SEAT BELTS :-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Jim Valle :-
Gordy
and Group,
I
believe the slide is a form of translation in that the friction of the line on
the guides is enough to tension the cast. This tension can replace translation
for a very good casters (pre-tensioned) backcast. The slide loading holds the
backcast rod angle longer (or flatter when combined with a drift) in the stroke
which allows the rotation phase to cover an even greater arc very quickly … thus a longer
rod tip travel distance over a very short time yields deeper rod loading and an
increase in tip speed resulting in a higher line speed…. To me slide loading delays rotation till the end of
the stroke and if controlled properly yields a great rotation and resulting
increase in line speed…
There
is another factor to the slide… and that is as soon as the slide is completed
the line shoot is stopped and the rod goes into “immediate max load”… like super load
(proportional to the amount of energy input into the cast thus far). Now the
larger rotation starts immediately… so the caster is not required to carry the
typical translation speed to
maintain the full rod load throughout the stroke (remember constant and increasing tension
is required … any reduction in tension will cause the rod to unload
proportionately) this is a good example of timing and balance over brute
strength which as we all know is one of Joan Wulff’s real strengths. Bottom line
is the rod goes from fairly neutral into max load in one direction and then
immediately into the rotation and an unload in the opposite direction with no
loss of available energy. That max load is evident when the timing of this cast
is just right, and you will know when it is!
Bruce
once told me a cast could be made with just rotation… I didn’t agree until I
practiced it and found it to be true…(it does take an experienced caster to keep
the tip path on a straight line and avoid the convex arc. I still favor teaching
translation to my students especially in the roll cast and forward cast stages.
It’s one of those “Don’t try this at home ….” Kind of things for a less than
experienced caster because as Bruce noted… add a little rotation into the slide
and it will become “Creep”!
Hope
that helps,
Jim
```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Jim Valle bounced that message to Bruce Richards. Here are Bruce's answers. They appear in Jim's text with each answer preceeded by *****. To make it easier for all, I'll highlight these answers in red italics. Gordy
Gordy and Group,
I believe the slide is a form of translation
****It is directly a move of
translation...
in that the friction of the
line on the guides is enough to tension the
cast.
****There is always tension on the line
that will cause a VERY small amount
of rod load, we've studied that with the
CA and a rod with a strain guage.
But the amount of bend is so small as to be
insignificant. It is not the
friction in the guides during slide loading that
causes the tension though,
the line is being moved in the direction of the
cast which would actually
reduce tension. The rod hand "slide" motion is in
the other direction
though, that would increase tension a bit, but very
little as the move is
short and slow.
This
tension can replace translation for a very good caster's
(pre-tensioned)
backcast.
*****Not sure I get this... There is
alway tension on the line and rod as
the loop straightens. Moving the rod
forward slowly a foot or so during a
slide load will effect very little
change in the tension, the move is too
short and slow to do
otherwise.
Comment: The tension
alone won't delay rotation which has been shown to make it easier to form a
tight loop. I agree with Jim in that there is a diminished need for translation
or slide loading if you have a bit of "pre-load" by shooting line back. To
quote Joan Wulff on distance casting: "Shoot a little on the forward
cast, shoot a lot on the back cast."
G.
The slide loading holds the backcast rod angle
longer (or flatter when
combined with a drift) in the stroke which allows the
rotation phase to
cover an even greater arc very quickly.
*****Slide loading would have no impact
on rod angle, it is a translation
move. Rod angle is maintained until it is
time for the stroke to start,
that is determined by how quickly the loop
straightens. In reality, if
anything, slide loading would pull slighly on the
bottom leg which would
force turnover more quickly which would cause the
stroke to start sooner.
But the move is hardly significant and wouldn't
change stroke timing by
more than a few hundredths of a second... To increase
rod arc would would
require that the caster also rotated the rod backwards
while slide loading
forward. This would probably result in the rod tip not
moving forward at
all, which would negate any increase in rod/line tension,
not that it was
significant to start
with..
… thus a longer rod tip travel distance
over a very short time yields
deeper rod loading and an increase in tip
speed resulting in a higher line
speed…. To me slide loading delays rotation
till the end of the stroke and
if controlled properly yields a great rotation
and resulting increase in
line speed…
******If the caster had not done a slide
load and simply waited for the
line to straighten the same result can be had.
If the motion used for slide
loading had beeen reserved for increased
translation during the stroke that
alone would account for some rod load
increase. But ultimately what causes
the rod bend is how powerfully the
caster can rotate the rod and maintain
control of the tip path, and I just
don't see how slide loading contributes
anything to
that...
Comment: I agree with Bruce on
that. G.
There is another factor to
the slide… and that is as soon as the slide is
completed the line shoot is
stopped and the rod goes into “immediate max
load”… like super load
(proportional to the amount of energy input into the
cast thus far).
*******This I don't get... where does the
energy to load the rod come from?
Most of the energy of the previous cast has
been dissipated by wind
resistance, there is little left in the line. And if
the rod did "super
load" as soon as the slide and shoot was stopped, how
would that not cause
a bad tailing loop? The rod tip would have to dip down
dramatically before
the stroke had even started.... Give his a try, go out
and do a slide load.
Stop the slide and shoot but don't make another cast.
Note how much your
rod bends when the line comes straight. I don't think
you'll notice much
load... Another thing to remember... This "technique" is
used mainly for
distance casting. In those casts the rod should have been
drifted back to
open the rod arc. This leaves the rod often pointing nearly
directly at the
line, horizontal to the ground. No amount of line tension can
cause any rod
load in that position. The more horizontal the rod is, the less
load. If
this is a technique to increase rod bend on long casts, it can't
work, the
rod is pointed the wrong way...
Two comments ... 1. I think you would get the energy if line is shot back as the loop unfurls. This would come from the momentum of the unfurling loop with just a bit left over after the turnover. With no back shoot, however, most of the energy would have dissipated as the loop fiinally straightened. s
2. All this can be done very
well with no back drift at all .... simply bring the rod tip back and
make your stop. That is the way I prefer to do it for most casts,
especially with a back wind. This is Lefty's
technique.
Gordy
Now the larger rotation starts
immediately… so the caster is not required
to carry the typical
translation speed to maintain the full rod load
throughout the stroke.
****Because the translation move has been
"wasted" (in my opinion) in slide
loading (which doesn't
load....)
Comment: This is what I
meant by the term "slide loading" being a misnomer.
Gordy
(remember constant and increasing
tension is required … any reduction in
tension will cause the rod to
unload proportionately)
****How can you have "constant and
increasing" tension?
Comment: I think Jim
meant constant acceleration. At least, that
is the way I'd have worded it.
Gordy
this is a good example of timing and
balance over brute strength which as
we all know is one of Joan Wulff’s real
strengths.
*****Although I didn't get to see Joan
cast distance when she was younger,
I very strongly suspect that she threw a
much better, straighter back cast
than her male counterparts which allowed
her to more efficiently utilize
her lesser (assumed) strength to throw the
line long. Certainly she had
great timing and balance too, but it was
technique that allowed her to
win...
Bottom
line is the rod goes from fairly neutral into max load in one
direction and
then immediately into the rotation and an unload in the
opposite direction
with no loss of available energy. That max load is
evident when the timing of
this cast is just right, and you will know when
it is!
*****As mentioned above, I think you are
greatly exaggerating the loading
effect of the line coming straight coupled
with a short, slow pull on the
line by the rod. There is no real reason not
to "slide load" if it suits
someones style, but the benefits gained from it
will be very small, if at
all, in my opinion.... When you see top casters
throwing the same distance,
some with an early forward move, some without, it
always makes me wonder
how important the extraneous move
is...
Comment: That's because it is a
translational move which results in very little acceleration of the rod tip,
therefore very little capacity to load the rod.
Gordy
Bruce once told me a cast could be made with just
rotation… I didn’t agree
until I practiced it and found it to be true…(it
does take an experienced
caster to keep the tip path on a straight line and
avoid the convex arc. I
still favor teaching translation to my students
especially in the roll cast
and forward cast stages. It’s one of those “Don’t
try this at home ….” Kind
of things for a less than experienced caster
because as Bruce noted… add a
little rotation into the slide and it will
become “Creep”!
****Rod rotation is the only REQUIRED
motion to make a cast, but casting is
certainly easier with some translation
added.
Comment: Agree.
G.
A fascinating subject that has been discussed many
times before. I hesitate
to get on the band wagon though until I see the best
casters using "slide
loading", winning distance competitions with the
technique, and explaining
why it is so good. Haven't seen that
yet...
Have a great New Year Jim!
Bruce
Hope that helps,
Jim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HAVE A GREAT NEW YEARS DAY .... AND A SUPER 2009 !
G.