Walter & Group...
Bruce Richards' comments on our last string of messages on slide loading including the note from Peter Morse. Notes between us follow:
Thanks Gordy, very interesting. It does sound like Peter isn't
including
the line hand "slide" in his description of slide loading, in which
case it
is simply drag.... Personally, I can't see any advantage to slide
loading,
don't see how it would make any cast smoother, or more powerful...
Seems to
me that simply moving the line hand back to the reel a little sooner
so
both hands can move forward together makes a lot more sense, and would
be
more effective. That's what most good casters do.
Do you see ways slide
loading can improve
anything?
Bruce
Scientific Anglers/3M
4100 James Savage
Rd.
Midland, MI 48642 USA
Tel:
989-496-1113
Fax: 989-496-3374
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Bruce....
The only thing I can see as an
advantage is that as a matter of style it
might make casting a tad more
comfortable for some casters. I think, too,
that some might cast a
little more smoothly by using it. ..... Again, a
matter of style NOT
SUBSTANCE. I really think casters who use it have
started with it
without realizing what the dickens they are really doing.
Even Joan, who
first described it, tells it that way.
I had posed that little
"quiz" on the
subject to all 189 of the folks in the Group and then
distilled the
answers. Interesting to get those Group
opinions.
Gordy
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Gordy,
I agree entirely. I suppose some could find slide loading (terribly
name
for the motion) "comfortable", I really don't see any possible
physical
advantages. They would be better off learning not to use this
crutch. But
as long as some advocate perceived advantages there will be those
who try
to adopt it.
Interesting that the suggested advantages of smoothness
(no
explanation for why), and increased rod load (probably just the opposite
is
true) are very poorly explained, and there is a good reason!
We just need to continue to challenge things like this so they don't
become
accepted, if something can't be explained logically, there is most
likely a
problem...
Very interesting discussion though, and allows us
to reinforce the really
important things about a good cast.
Bruce
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Bruce now places his comments in the answers to our little quiz on slide loading. Each of his comments are preceeded by ****** and are in bold red italics. My comments in blue italics:-
QUIZ ON SLIDE LOADING...... RESULTS :-
1.)
Most thought it didn't really increase distance for most casters.
A
couple of answers included the caveat that it might if it was used as
a
caster's own style.
2.) Many felt it was an issue of style, not
a fault. Some said it might
mask a fault.
*****Slide loading as described would slightly reduce the ability
to
straighten the line with a "drag" before a cast. While probably not
a
fault, certainly not something that would improve a
cast..
Agree.
G.
3.) Most thought it could be a fault
if done incorrectly.
4.) Almost all felt tht it could smooth out the
cast if done properly with
good timing. No one said it couldn't, but
some said that they just didn't
know.
*****Has anyone explained how ?, I still don't see
this....
In the event we have a
caster who is applying a sudden spike of power at the start, then I can see
giving back a little line as the line hand is moved toward the rod hand
could moderate this and result in a smoother application of
power. If that were the case, it would be masking a
fault . G.
5.) Half
thought that it could result in shortening the stroke or rod arc
if done
improperly.
*****As described, could
shorten stroke, not arc. If arc is shortened that
would be due to
creep.
Yes.... since creep is a rotational
defect, it would use up some available rod arc.
G.
6.) No one figured that it would really
increase the total rod load. One
answered, "not
much".
******If anything it could
reduce rod load due to reduced
line
straightening...
7.) Most agreed
that slide loading could distribute the same load over a
different time
interval.
*****I don't see how the
time interval would be changed. The loop will
straighten at the same time as
it would without SL and that is what
dictates when the next cast starts. I
don't see how SL would change when
unload happens. If load starts and stops
at the same time either way,
interval remains the
same..
By time interval, I meant
the timing of the application of power / load. NOT the timing (cadence) of
the cast. I agree that it won't change the timing of the
unfurling of the loops and therefore not that of the cast.
G.
8.) Opinion was divided
almost equally on whether this would be helpful.
9.) All said
that a well informed Master should be familiar with
it.
*****Agreed.
10.) No one
said that we should be teaching it to our advanced students,
though some said
we should do that if asked.
*****As
long as the student was told that benefits are
unlikely...
11.) No one felt that we
should criticize and/or eliminate its use if we
found that one of our
advanced students was slide loading.
*****Never criticize, but I'd sure try to get rid of it in a
student who
was striving for
distance.
12.) Opinion was almost equally
divided as to whether the term, SLIDE
LOADING, was a
misnomer.
*****Since it causes no
loading, and potentially slightly decreases it
during the stroke, I'd sure
call it something else.
13.) Everybody
except one agreed that it would probably remain a
controversial
subject. Some pointed out that this was OK.
*****Agreed....
Gordy
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From Raffaele Mascaro. (For those of you who might not know, Raf is one of our International CBOG's from Italy) :-
Hi Gordy,
Happy New Year from Italy !
I
like the Peter's description "leading with the butt". This is
something
particularly used in Italy. As you know most of the italian fly
anglers
like fishing with short rod and ultra-light flylines (mainly DT2 or
DT3),
rods are fast and mainly tip action. Sometime to make a longer cast
there
is the need of "leading with the butt". Rotation is at the end of a
very
long stroke , rod hand is well behind the shoulder in the backcast
..
If everything is done properly, at the end of backcast , the
natural
position of line hand is very close to the ring and the rod is
almost
parallel to the ground. I don't have technical data to support but you
can
feel the flyline pulling the line hand and in this way the waste of
energy
looks almost zero.
On the forward cast again the rotation will be
at the end of the stroke.
When student ask for this style I explain them to
be concentrated on the
butt section and to pull it as long as possible. A
good example is if the
feeling of pulling away an elastic band from a fixed
support.
Another good exercise is to try to cast only with hands...tiring
but
effective to keep energy in something can't load like a rod. If I
remember
well I showed some casts to Jim during the last
Conclave.
Best Regards
Raf
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Raf ... I agree fully (as does Bruce Richards) that this is a very effective technique.. Some call it "dragging". Others call it "pulling".
I look at it as a translational movement of the fly rod prior to rotation (rod arc.). It has been well demonstrated that using this translation to delay rotation can be very effective.
I really like your word picture and the concept of how it feels !
Since you don't describe any movement of the line hand back toward the rod hand as this is done, I wouldn't consider it Slide loading.
Have a great New Year !!!
Gordy
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From Bruce Richards:
Agreed, typical "pulling" cast...
Bruce
Scientific
Anglers/3M
4100 James Savage Rd.
Midland, MI 48642
USA
Tel: 989-496-1113
Fax: 989-496-3374