Teaching problem students /Mends / Pan fishing ?

Gordy--When holding a class I have occasionally run into a particular type person. They used to frustrate me as much as Peter was with the judge. For example, I would say to the student do you realize that you leader jumps from right to left at the end of each cast and that can affect your accuracy. The reply would be, " I don't think so." I would then demonstrate as kindly and patient as possible and ask him to cast. The leader of course would jump from left to right but he still denied it.

Another example, you suggest an improvement in their casting and it is ignored or more often they offer an excuse for it happening. Everything I know and do is subject to revision and improvement. As a result I become frustrated at such students. I would spend an extra effort hoping to help them.

It took along time but I finally realized two things when conducting a casting class. There are people who either don't want to learn or don't want to be told they are doing something inefficiently--they are looking for compliments. Persisting in helping them usually irritates them and frustrates you. I finally realize that some people don't want to be told they are doing something incorrectly. WORSE--by spending time with such students I neglected or diminished the time I should have spent with students who wanted to learn.

For many years now the moment I get an indication that a person is such as mentioned above--I simply spend very little time with them and more with other students. The person resisting instructions is happier and my other students progress. I guess my message to instructors is look for these symptoms. Say something nice to them making them happy but spend you time with students who you can help.

PS--you can share this with the site if you like.

Would like to hear your comments on this--since I know you've run into the same people.

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Lefty, Good advice. There are some folks that are very difficult. Luckily it isn't more common.

Sometimes a student is completely turned off when confronted with errors. With these folks a negative approach can blow the whole scenario. A real problem when teaching a group of students.

If I'm teaching on a one-to-one basis and don't have to consider other students, I'll sometimes do something like this:

Instructor: " Hey, I really like the way you jumped that leader to the right. Can you jump it even more ?"

Student: " Did I really do that ?

Instructor: "You sure did. Look at it on the ground. It's way to the right of the target." "Now, can you jump it even more ?"

Now, I'm on the student's wave length and hopefully he's on mine. Once in a while, a bad situation can be plucked out of the mud by this complimentary approach. False compliment ? yes. But it sometimes works.

Sometimes I'll purposely have a student make a fault worse .... like an out of control wrist yielding a big wide loop. Then I'll have him go back to what he was doing (the loop gets a little smaller) ..... then I have him do what he did to get back to where he was before AND KEEP GOING. Sometimes results in a smaller loop. Then I ask him to tell me how he did that. He almost never can. After that, I tell him how I saw him do it and how to go from there..................

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HOW DO YOU HANDLE STUDENTS LIKE THIS ? WE'LL ALL PROFIT FROM YOUR ANSWERS. G.

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quick one because I'm just out.

One of the problems in using RSP to differentiate between a mend and a cast is to assume that RSP always translates back to the difference between top and bottom legs, which I've recently learned is not always the case because this is also haul dependent.

Perhaps a better way of determining the difference between mends and casts is what they do to the line/fly. In general a mend doesn't reposition or affect the fly, whereas a cast always has an effect on the fly.

To take Mac's example, if you throw a snap down a vertical loop you end up with a 180 curve. If on the otherhand you mend (less power) on the same cast you end up with a hump or (Mac) bucket mend.

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Paul... Good points.

In your last example, however, that snap was thrown after your initial cast, not during it.

Using this logic we can look at a mend as altering the fly line and a cast as altering the flight of the fly. Combining the two:

MEND: REPOSITIONING THE FLY LINE AFTER THE CAST WITHOUT CHANGE IN THE PATH OF THE FLY.

CAST: UNROLLING A FLY LINE LOOP TO PRESENT A FLY.

CAST/MEND : A CAST FOLLOWED BY AN ARIAL MEND WHICH DOES NOT ALTER THE PATH OF THE FLY.

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From David Diaz :

Hi Gordy and the Group:

Interesting cases are the ones that lie across boundaries. What Mac Brown describes is a forward cast whose loop he (and others) can predictably control after RSP, after deceleration of the butt, after the point of zero tip deflection, after counterflex, after recovery. . . after, after, after, after, which is when--according to our theory of casting--the caster is not supposed to be able to control the legs of the loop. Calling it a cast-mend, a mend-cast, a snap, a snap-cast, a cast-snap, or an un-cast registers as an inadequate designation because the technique allows a controlled and powered placement of the fly. The cast he describes doesn't fit our customary and ordinary categories, but disallowing its status as a cast doesn't pass the logical smell test. I doubt that fly casting is a subset of quantum physics, that it's necessary to posit that Schroedinger's cat is both cast and mend, or that resorting to Gedankenexperiment as the umbrella genre will resolve the problem Brown poses. Conclusion is that more than it substantiates the bases for our discrimination between cast and mend, Mac's boundry case emphasizes the inadequacy of our conceptual model.

That our discussion group can stand on the threshold of theoretical modelling is a tribute to the intellectual quality of its organizer. I think it's fabulous, and nothing else available is even close. The issue of levels of model validity may strike some as unbearable. But, intellectual confidence is usually the product of discarding what we know to be inadequate. And if it turns out that abandoning our customary approach dominated by a temporal dimension for another model which emphasizes either pattern, movement, speed variations, torque, acceleration, or direction, then we would do so cheerfully. Or we may find that our customary model is peruasive enough at lower levels where the margin of error is trivial, but it let's us down at higher ones.

So, the task becomes what is the explanatory model for fly casting that includes the cast Mac descibes? So that it is said, I am still working on the cast. I have seen Mac cast it, but I can't do it, yet.

Best, D.

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D....

Reducing that "snap cast" to simple terms isn't easy. I admit that I have not really figured out the physics behind it. Here is what it feels like when I do it ........ the ZEN of it :

I make a standard forward cast of about 45'. Moderate loop speed.

As the loop unfurls, I slowly bring my rod tip back, down, and a bit more off to the side.

That is the "set-up" for the next move.

While that loop is still unrolling, I now make a quick high speed cast aimed below the unfurling loop and finish it with as sudden a stop as I can muster.

If my timing is just right, and the second loop cast beneath the first one is faster than the initial one, it overtakes the first loop and seems to cause a wave in the line which causes the fly and leader to snap way back behind me.

When I make my second cast, I can aim that fly to go behind me to the right or left by making my rod tip travel so that as it comes to a stop it is going in the direction OPPOSITE that where I want my fly to go. (If I stop my rod so that the tip is travelling to the right, it will flip my fly back benind me to my left and vice versa.)

To emphasize David's point on conceptual models (above) HERE IS A CASE WHERE THE FLY GOES IN THE DIRECTION OPPOSITE THAT TAKEN BY THE ROD TIP AS IT CAME TO A STOP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you make the second cast in the same casting plane as the first, it flips the fly and leader right back to you ..... one way of looking cool as you retrieve your fly back in hand.

I learned this technique from Floyd Dean who is a great "trick caster" doing demo's at shows. He can do it much better than anyone else I've seen attempt it. I watched him do it while placing the fly accurately into targets behind him to the right and to the left at various distances !!!

Tom White was very good at it and some gave him credit for inventing it, years ago. Once at a fly show, he used it to hit a heckler in the chest with the fly who was standing behind him and to his left. Wow'd the crowd.

Performing the snap cast when you have a fly already on the water is a lot easier. Really the same as the Snap-T of Spey casting.*

Years ago, when I took my MCCI exam, I added this one to my repertoire of change-of-direction casts. I'm glad I wasn't asked the question as to the casting mechanics behind it !

Gordy

* Great description and photos of the Snap-T in Simon Gawesworth's, SPEY CASTING, Chapter 12, pp. 143-164.

Also: TWO-HANDED FLY CASTING Spey Casting Techniques, Al Buhr, pp. 36-37.

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Question from Micael Jones:

Gordy:

In discussing the MCCI exam with some members of FFF I have had the topic of Pan Fishing come up as a potential topic. Having had little-no experience with Pan Fishing, I am interested in hearing about 'leader preferences' from the group. Also, what is the best Pan Fishing rod size and line type? Again, I know very little here, so all input is appreciated. Is there a particular author/expert to review this topic with/from?

Michael Jones

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Let's see if some of you can answer Michael's question.

Gordy