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  • RSP - loop formation /Damping - counterflex / Fly line loops



    [First_Name] & Group...

    From Server Sadik.  (Note his attachment) :-

    Gordy,
     
    Loop origination keeps coming up in discussions so I have drawn the following diagram to show some aspects of RSP.  The diagram is also attached as a file.  Mac wondered about adding line speed during counterflex - I can't see how that can happen but I admit I wasn't able to fully understand some of what was said.  My diagram is drawn to scale.  The 2nd picture shows two possibilities which result from more or less rod butt rotation rate near RSP.  During rod loading and rod unloading the fly line is pulled by the rod tip (assumes caster avoids tip kickback) and increases it's speed.  Shown is a good cast where the fly line lies along a virtual straight line path behind the rod tip.  Achieving good timing and having things happen at good angles assures that near RSP  the tip will buck downward and stop pulling on the bulk of the fly line (most of fly line momentarily has zero tension).  (For kickback and bad angles the tip bucks upward during unloading - tailing loops).  Then as soon as any fly line passes the rod tip a new type of fly line dynamics starts (assuming fly line does not slide through rod guides). For rod loading and rod unloading the tip pulls the fly line and after some of the line is in front of tip, the lower leg of fly line pulls on the fly line lying in upper leg.  Before this board came into existence I wrote about the details of this process on Guy's board. I'm sure I have it saved someplace and when I come across it I'll post it to you because many folks reading here may not have seen the information.
     
    I need some help.  I am not able to open files you post - I am an "aol" user on my home computer.  The files come as ".mim" files and I haven't been able to open these at home or the university.  I wonder if someone using aol could tell me how to open the attachments so I can open them at home??  Please send your advice//instructions to me directly - ssadik1@xxxxxxx. - rather than tying up the board.
     
    My next project will be to discuss the casting paradigms I mentioned recently which will, I think, lead naturally into further explanation of why casters control max rod loading and have little//no control of the rod behavior during unloading and counterflex.
     
    Server
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    From Al Buhr : -

    Server,
    I believe my hand/arm is a part (or is) the damping, yet I think of the rod damping. Now clarified, I do see the rod's hollow shaft not ideal for asorbing or denting energy.
     
    Related to this, both Jim Green and I have made solid graphite rods. The cores generally built up with 40 mil with 50 to 55 mil as the outer powerfiber wraps. No woop wraps needed, since the solid shaft would not oval.
     
    Unique to this rod is the 'dead' feel the rod has when the stop is complete, no forward vibration as you have discribe (and I have felt in standard hollow rods).
     
     The rod has much more mass, therefore should have more greater counterflex and develop rebound, yet no or little rebound ocurs. 
     
    When the rod shaft is solid it is more dense and can asorb exces energy?
     
    Al
     
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                                                                FLY LINE END LOOPS
     
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    I know of no one with as much experience with customizing fly lines than Al Buhr.  Here is some interesting information from him on making bonded loops :-
     

    RE: Loops connections

    Hi Gordy,

    I am very familiar with the braided monofilament loops. I would like to suggest other options to consider such as a one-piece loop, bonded or welded.

    A one-piece loop, utilizing the line, allows direct transfer of stresses. The interconnecting loops, when tighten, creates a cinch and binds the loop connection, reducing the direct pull of the joint bond or weld. Unlike braided mono loops, a one-piece loop will not over tighten and be difficult to loosen. A one-piece loop can be damaged if small diameter loops are over tightened, such as light sinking tips or monofilament.

    A bonded loop:

    For ultimate strength (full line core strength) a one-piece loop bonded has proven consistent. A quick, simple and durable loop to make.

    Needed is a knife, flexible superglue (Loctite 414 is best) and fly tying thread or single-strand floss (best).

    Note: Loctite 414 is a bonder made for vinyl based materials and works exceptional well on PVC, PU and PE

    1)       Starting with the line tip, slice a flat notch ¾” into the line. Do not cut into the core, but aside, to expose the core.

    2)       Move back 3”, cut a second flat notch equal in length and in alignment with the first notch. Length of the notch (to become the bonded joint area) is in relation to the core strength. Lengthen the notch (joint area) when extreme tension is anticipated.

    3)       Fold the line end, mating the two flat notches to check loop size and joint alignment. A flat, equal match is desirable.

    4)       Relax the line, allowing it to straighten and apply the bonder to the exposed cores and notch faces. Apply a very thin layer of bonder and only to the notch. Excessive amounts will cause a sticky finger problem later. Allow a minute to pass, permitting the cores to soak and adsorb the bonder. This is important, for consistent full pull strength the cores must align and bond. The line’s strength is in the core, not the coating.

    5)       To fit and bond the loop; fold the line, match the notches and seat. Hold firmly between the index and thumb for 30 to 60 seconds (rubbing some candle wax prior will reduce any tacking to the fingers).

    6)       Whip finish the joint area with single-stand floss (it will lay flat for a low profile). The thread wraps are not for strength, but add durability.

    I have used this loops for several weeks of continual use without any outer wraps.

     

    This type of bonded joint can be used in a line-to-line connection. Nothing will tighten the “spinkner” like a loop connection banging through the guides as a fish makes the last chance surge. To eliminate the loop use two matching flat notches, one on each line end.

    This is a perfect bonded splice for attaching monofilament shooting line to the head. With mono, use a pair of pliers to crimp the end of the mono (about ½ the joint length) for an improved bond. Follow the related steps listed above to cutting and bonding.

     

    Welded one-piece loops can be equally as strong. Once becoming familiar to the process, it is easy and reliable. Open flame (a cigarette lighter) can be used, however a hot air gun or hair straightening iron will give best results.

     

    With welded mono cored sinking tips, a one-piece loop can incorporate a filler of PU. The PU will act as a bonding filler, making the joint much easier to mold. Then by using a contrasting color to note density, a color code system can be developed to make fishing simpler and more successful.

     

    When large diameter fly line requires a loop, a two-piece loop is a simple way to make a small petite loop.

    A two-piece loop when made of a high contrast such as bright hot orange can act as a strike-indicator while also acting as the connection to a poly-leader.

    Two-piece loops can be made by bonding or welding.

     

    A few ideas to the many ways to make fly line connections.

     

    Al

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    Al ...  Do you think the bonded loop will be sufficiently strong for big game salt water fly fishermen who use 20 lb. test classs tippets ?

    Gordy

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    From Nial Logan:

    Gordie,

     

    Using the braided nylon loop as described by Lefty on the end of a leader has another advantage when you are using long leaders on the flats. If you haven’t got a guide or a friend with you, in preference to putting the reel in water, you generally have to partially dismantle the rod to get the knots clear of the rod tip. The braided connection will cast easily through the rod guides.

     

    To digress a bit, the other loop connection to consider for those changing lines on a regular basis is on the back end of the flyline and the backing. Most here use a braided nylon loop on the fly line and a loop formed by a bimini twist in the end of the backing of GSP or Dacron. With GSP, a single strand has been known to cut through the nylon braid after a few hard running fish such as tuna.  The alternative is to double the line and, although this solves the cutting problem, the loops tend to pull tight and are tedious to get apart. The solution is to use a braided loop on the end of the GSP. The two braided loops are very strong and are easy to get apart to enable quick fly line changes.

     

     If you are not aware of the technique used to form the loop on the GSP, a good description can be found on Peter Morse’s DVD “Arbor to Fly”. He can no doubt supply a better description on “how to” than I can for those who are interested.

     

    Regards,

    Nial

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    Nial :  Another way to help prevent the GSP (Gelspun) material from cutting through the fly line loop has been the way I've been doing it.  I simply place a segment of nylon mono with a 1/2' Duncan loop at either end between the fly line and the GSP loop.  We've also been using GSP which has an oval rather than a round cross section and we no longer use the very fine (though strong enough) material for this and other reasons.

    I'm still excited to try Lefty's suggestion of using the braided nylon multifilament (NOT BRAIDED MONOFILAMENT) fishing line on the fly line end of the mono. butt section of the leader.

    Gordy

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