"Definitions" .. Spey?, Roll casts? Elliptical casts ? Switch casts?

Gordy & Group,

Gordy, In one of the responses you stated the following revised definition of a Spey cast.

My definition is: "A live line, aereolized ,change of direction elliptical cast." I used to include the term, "roll " or, "roll type", but some Spey experts took firm issue with that. Others did not.

I have 2 thoughts , mostly because I think the word “elliptical” only creates more confusion especially for the student:

1. Unlike the Roll Cast, Elliptical casts never touch the water or ground. Continuous tension , yes but not the same as a spey with an anchor.

2. It is a common method to teach the roll cast as an introduction to spey and thus I believe it is a logical progression for students to transform a roll into a spey. The switch cast (taught early by everyone (even though it’s not even a spey cast…no change of direction))sure looks like a live line roll cast! I would also add roll casts are a required cast to raise a sinking line to the surface prior to making a spey move, so they are already in the curriculum.

I believe the definition you introduced a couple years ago is more accurate and a better descriptor from a student’s perspective. That definition was:

“The Spey cast is an aerialized, live line, change of direction, modified roll type cast”. (I might add) “in multiple planes”.

“The Spey cast is an aerialized, live line, change of direction, modified roll type cast in multiple planes”.

It could be said that there is no real “spey cast” per se…there are single spey, double spey, snake rolls, snap t & c, circle, cut, spiral casts etc. the later have no similarity to roll casts but are certainly spey casts or moves.

However it is essential that the student be given some understanding of what they are about to learn…so a definition is definitely in order…

In reality the “spey move” or “spey casting” is a method of lifting and repositioning a fly line by applying a series of changing accelerations and momentums in a circular or semi-circular fashion through numerous planes thereby eliminating the need for a backcast. (Like to hear Ally’s, Al’s, Rick’s et al spey casters comments on this also.)

Although this seems more correct to me it’s a bit complicated to lay on a student especially a student new to the moves.

So back to traditional spey casting resembling a roll cast at least in the beginning. I have to admit the more I practice and learn the less it feels anything like a roll cast, (now I start to understand why spey folks resist the roll cast comparison), but when single hand fly casters watch and ask questions during my practice sessions they are seeing roll casts! Maybe we have to start explaining… it looks like or appears to be, or, has some similarities to… a roll cast… start with the simple definition,… and then progress to the more exact and correct reality of multiple planes and accelerations.

Interesting teaching point to be made here… Ally’s concept of ”Spey Casting Made Easy” keeps it simple, he starts with roll casts, moves to the anchor, Keeps the rod tip leading and rising…Slowly, and then makes the forward cast… the really interesting thing is that as a student it allowed me to make the casts and only then could I begin to understand the intricacies. Kind of like starting with an outline overview and then getting to the details. Same thing we do with single hand students. Point is that we have to start students with something they can get their mind around, once the basics are acquired then build the details of mastering the cast. The ability to understand and adapt, take the complicated, refine it to simple and then build on that foundation …Isn’t that what instructing is all about?

Bottom line I think your first definition was closer to the mark and a better teaching definition.

A roll cast in its broadest sense is closer to the spey cast than an elliptical cast. The roll cast shares similarities in the lift, formation of a D loop, loading the rod and making the forward cast portion. The manner of setting the anchor, accelerating the rod tip, directing the line’s momentum and timing are dissimilar.

My thoughts at this point in my spey education anyway.

Hope it helps those in the group “Understand” a little deeper perspective!

Jim

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Jim.... I like your thought process. See my comments at the end of this, "string". Gordy

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Question from Rene Hesse on this subject :-

Hello Gordy,

I'm still absorbing the Spey cast concept compared with the roll cast.

It was explained to me that you can distinguish a roll cast by the fact that the water tension on the line is what your casting against The spey cast uses the D loop weight to make the cast.

Could those be the distinguishing points or definitive points?

Rene

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Rene, Jim, Pete .... Group:

One family of casts can meld into another with no absolute distinction.

We can make this as complicated or as simple as we wish.

If you think about it, both the roll cast and most Spey casts load from in front and in back.

In the case of a single Spey, for example, the anchor as well as the D-loop work together to load the rod..... so the difference in loading is not a distinguishing factor. Different roll casts and Spey casts will have differing relative loads from in front and in back.

They are very similar casts and many experts feel that a Spey cast is in the family of roll casts. No hard agreement exists on this point.

I see gray areas of distinction between the two.

Most roll casts have a dead line back cast with a stop rather than an active (live line) D-loop and no stop.

The so-called, "switch cast" is called a, "forward Spey" by some. I see it as an orphan cast ..... neither a true roll cast (because there is no stop prior to the forward stroke) or a true Spey cast (because it doesn't change direction). Some teach that the,"switch cast" doesn't exist ........ yet we all know how to do it ! "Switch Cast", "Forward Spey", "Live line Roll Cast", "Dynamic Roll cast" .....TAKE YOUR PICK. Tom White used to say, "I don't care what you call it, just show me you can do it and know what it is used for, its advantages and its disadvantages." Despite my, "orphan" label, I see it used for distance roll type casting and as a really effective prelude to learning the single Spey cast. (Some even look at it as a single Spey cast without change of direction.) Either family may elect to adopt this orphan.

Most roll casts and most Spey casts have the rod tip and back cast line behind the caster prior to the forward cast, but that is true of most casts, anyway. On this point, roll casts and Spey casts conform, with the addition that while the rod tip and back cast loop are behind the caster, THE FLY NEVER DOES GO BEHIND THE CASTER prior to the forward stroke.

One distinction which is not absolute, is the fact that most (NOT ALL) Spey casts are truly elliptical casts and are made with continuous tension. That is not usually the case with roll casts.

Elliptical casts are made with a change of rod planes (casting planes) between the back cast and the forward cast. While I see the Belgian and, "Reverse Belgian" casts as elliptical casts, they are not roll casts or Spey casts partly because they don't gain rod load from the line/leader on the water in front of the caster and the fact that the fly does go behind the caster at one point. Some call these the, "European continuous tension casts". (Said to have been popularized by Hans Gebetsroither of Austria, years ago).

It appears to me, then, that most Spey casts belong to the family of roll casts and to the family of elliptical casts.

I give Ally Gowans credit for authoring the concept of families of casts. These families, as I have come to see it, intermarry and interdigitate to form a syncycium of casts with forever indistinct boundries. Some of these boundries are formed of hard data. Others by opinion & the remainder by dictum. The latter two are always accompanied by conflict.

So, Jim ..... I'll go back to my original definition of a Spey cast: A live line, aereolized, change of direction, modified roll type cast.

Gordy