Load for roll casting / Teaching Scenarios

Walter & Group..........

One more message before I hop a plane for New Jersey     G.

Good question from Gary Eaton:

Gordy,

 

In a serious discussion with a fellow CCI we debated the concept of where rod loading comes from in a typical, plain roll cast. We know we cannot load a rod with no line opposite the target in a single rod movement- This lends to thinking line behind the rod (opposite target) is the loader.

 

We also know we need to have an anchor or stick with surface tension of the water surface holding the line to resist. Do we need both? One auhtor advocates the grip of surface tension is what loads the rod.

 

Please help clarify this.

 

 Thanks,

 

 Gary

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Answers Even though I'm late, I can't resist tackling this one !

This is a relative thing.

With most roll casts of moderate or short distance, some of the load comes from the resistance of the line and leader on the water in front of the caster (say 1 1/2 rod lengths in front.)   Some load MUST come from behind.  This is why when you teach the static roll cast setup, the rod tip should not be at or in front of shoulder level; but behind the casting shoulder. (Forming a static D-loop.)

The relative loads from in front and in back change with distance roll casting.  One can have the same load from in front as above, but when going for roll cast distance, you need a bit (and sometimes a lot) more line behind you.  When you do that, a much higher percentage of the total load comes from behind.

Lefty does this with his roll cast style in which he places his rod tip about as far back behind him as he can get it.

When Tom White demo'd his famous 100' static roll cast, he'd do that plus flip more line behind him on the bank in a static tight loop directly behind his casting arm elbow.  That tight loop behind him was STRAIGHT BACK, not curved to one side in order to avoid slack.  One reason for the rod tip to be way back and low, was to prevent a sag in the line hanging down from the rod tip ..... which is slack.  His rod tip was not only low and straight back, but was pointed right at the apex of his static ground loop.

When casting on grass, a perfect roll cast setup makes it completely unneccessary to have someone stand on or hold the fly in front or to use any sort of, "roll cast tool".  Why ?   BECAUSE ALMOST ALL THE LOAD COMES FROM BEHIND.

Experimenting with these techniques on different lawns, gym floors, ice, snow, etc. ..... I've found that one can become savvy about the relative lengths of line in front and in back for best results.   Largely depends upon the amount of friction between the line in front and the surface upon which it rests.  Always different from that provided by the surface film of water.  Salt water provides a tad less load ...... rough water a lot more.  May be too much load from the water if the fly line and leader sink down.

When I get an MCCI candidate on an exam who needs to have his fly held in some manner ....... its OK, but it tells me that this candidate doesn't have a clue as to these relative loads or how to achieve them .  I don't expect the CCI candidate to know this detail.

Gordy

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Answers to the teaching scenarios from walter Simberski :-

. Make it very clear that in order to cast 120 feet you have to be able to cast 30 feet very very well and then in order for

the student to be able to add distance there is a progression of skills that needs to be perfected. Also consider

that he may actually have very good skills but may be trying to show off. The first exercise is to get him to back off

until finding the range that he is actually comfortable with and demonstrates good form and using that as the starting

point. I'm not sure why the direction he points his feet would be that big of an issue - stance, grip, etc. should be

relatively easy to modify if needed.

 

2 a. Concentrate on slowing down and developing a feel for the stiffer and heavier rod.

 

   b. If the student is wrenching his shoulder on every cast then he is applying power poorly and

       is not allowing the rod to contribute to the cast.

 

3. First gather a bit of background regarding the type and size of trout they will be fishing for and the

   environment they are going into (lake vs river, walk and wade or floating, dry fly vs nymphs or streamers).

   While the 5 principles apply regardless of the answers we need to realize that success and satisfaction

   (i.e. catch fish and have fun) are the goals. The basic skills of reducing slack and maintaining slp

   are important in all cases but the fish really don't care too much about that stuff. What sort of presentations

   will they need to make (ultra quiet dry fly vs fishing streamers in large rivers) (also pick up and lay down

   or some subtle mending capability?)

 

   So, since they have the same basic skill set, treat them the same and start with the basics 

   and then get them to work on loop control and some line control (e.g. slipping line and keeping slack out of the

   system). Sh ow them the common faults such as throwing the line on the ground on the back cast and work on

   initial accuracy.

 

   From there work on the hows and whys of the presentations they are going to require - how to cast to a rising

   fish, how to mend and what mends should be used (e.g. typically mend opposite the direction of water flow but

   when and how this  rule of thumb should be changed). Work on how to hook, play and release the fish. Explain

   the basics of not getting in each other's way whether on a boat or walking the shoreline. Assess the personalities

   a bit as well and find ways that they can help each other with their casting when they don't have an instructor

   readily available.

 

Cheers

 

Walter

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Another approach from Pete Humphries :-

Hi Gordy,

 

A student presents himself as experienced and the recipient of instruction from a famous teacher or casting hero.  What he requests is advanced instructlion, working on his haul for very long distance. 

                                                                                     BUT

His fundamentals are terrible; loop control does not exist ... he doesn't even point one foot at the target.

How do you return him to the real problem ?  Remember, he paid for big league teaching.

 

Honesty is the best policy.  You would have to explain the situation to the student and suggest he takes a step back and work on getting the fundamentals correct before attempting long distance casts. 

He will fail at long distance casts regardless of double haul instruction if he has no fundamentals.  Why set him and yourself up to fail??  Regardless of his previous teacher I would lay it on the line and risk upsetting him.  Take him back to basics and build him back up with a plan of lessons.  I would suggest 1 lesson per week over a 1 - 2 month period and plenty of practice time in between.

 

2.) A male prospect in his 30's is going to Key West for 4 days to fish for bones, tarpon and permit, departing in 2 weeks .....his trip of a lifetime.

Although he has 10 years experience fishing for rainbows on large Western rivers, the brand-new, luxury grade 9 wt. with matching rreel and floating line feels desperately awkward to him and he wrenches his casting arm shoulder every time he uses it.  He wants a single one-hour lesson before he goes.

a.   What do you concentrate on ?

b.   Why ?

First question is does the student have a medical problem with his shoulder??  If he does, I would suggest that he stayed home and I went to Keys in his place....just kidding! 

Assuming he has no medical problem with his shoulder it sounds like he is over powering the rod, using too much brut force and not letting the fly rod do the work.  Here's what I would try-

1,  Important to get this student to make the fly rod do the work, not his shoulder so I would cast the 9 wght set up and make sure it is loading the rod easily.  I would try a 10 wght line on it and try and overload it for the student and let him cast the rod overloaded.  This should help him feel the load better and hopefully let the rod do the work, not his shoulder.

2, generally instruct him that he should concentrate on smooth application of power, slow down and not over power his stroke.

3, IF we had time I would work on throwing tight loops and tune up his double haul.  This would help him for general fishing conditions in the Keys with casting in windy conditions.

 

In one month, four friends are going trout fishing in the American West.  One has some experience, is past beginner but not by much.  The other three are, " below beginner".   They all want to acquire the skills necessary for success and satisfaction.

What is your suggested program for this group ?

I would suggest a group lesson and start from basics.  The one student who is a little more advanced would likely benefit from starting from scratch and then you could teach the group together and build camaraderie before the trip.

 

I would do a 2 hour group lesson once a week before they go on the trip and insist on plenty of practice sessions in between lessons.

 

lesson 1 - grip - stance - basic principles - pick and lay down- roll cast.

lesson 2 - false casting - shooting line - loop control (theory behind loop size and why and how to throw a tight loop) 

lesson 3 - looking at potential fishing situations they may encounter on the trip and some tips to help with success.  Dry fly fishing - reach cast - pile cast - slack line cast - mending.  Nymphing techniques - swinging a nymph and dead drift high stick/indicator.

lesson 4 -  single and double haul - theory and practical.  Final tune up and general help for each students on areas of weakness.