TORQUE / Loops

Walter & Group..........

From Tony Loader  my brief comments in bold blue italics.  Gordy :-

Hi Gordy,

 

Thanks for Walter's modified spreadsheet.

 

Your comments below, on Lefty's teaching, illustrate that there can be pitfalls when we mislabel cause and effect. My question about whether hauling tightens the loop is very much to that point.

 

My attempt in relation to "Torque" below.

 

QUESTIONS ON THE TABLE:

1.) TORQUE.  WHAT IS IT ?

Torque (noun) Mechanics. something that produces or tends to produce torsion or rotation; the moment of a force or system of forces tending to cause rotation.

(verb) to cause to rotate or twist.

2.) HOW DOES IT AFFECT CASTING ?

Rod rotation provides the majority of the force in a cast. Torque, in the casting plane, therefore is responsible for most of the line energy of a cast.

We may also rotate the rod axially. Such rotation, while accelerating the (bent) rod, produces a moment at the rod tip which causes the tip to describe a curved path, essentially in the horizontal plane.

Yes.  I think the latter (torque in the axis of the rod) is what Ally meant.    G.

3.) HOW CAN WE USE IT  ?

The line follows the tip, thus by controlling the amount and timing of axial torque application, we can produce and control a curved cast.     Yes.  This method of making a curved cast is well depicted in, THE CAST, Ed Jaworowski, pp. 130-138. G.

4.) HOW CAN WE AVOID IT ? ( THE LATTER ESPECIALLY WITH TWO HANDED RODS WHERE CAN BE A PROBLEM )

One way to avoid unwanted axial torque is to maintain the reel's orientation, throughout the rod movements.

 

We can alsominimize its deleterious effects (including loosening or breakage of ferrules) by how smoothly we cast.  Also, mechanically, by taping the ferrules of long two handed rods.    G.

Regards,

Tony.

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From Michael Jones :-

 

Also Gordy:

By observing Lefty cast and instruct for 4 days straight very recently, I think he is onto something that he struggles with in description when it comes to hauling and loop shape/size.  Lefty repeatedly says that if you want a tighter loop, you have to haul with greater intensity.  I observe that he uses the haul and his razor sharp stop to send the counterflex of the rod tip exactly in the direction of the cast, rather than down, or in any other direction (as we assume the tip path travel can be in our accepted 'counterflex theory')

In this vein, I like to think that his counterflex and rod-tip-tangent are directed exactly at the target, and this helps to generate loops of modest proportions in both backcast and forward casts, respectively, independent of hauling.  The concept is that counterflex can increase line speed while preserving a small loop shape, rather than driving a cast in an otherwise unwanted trajectory away from SLP, independent of hauling!  That simple...  

Michael Jones

 

Yes.  As you know, counterflex can open up a newly formed tight loop to a degree.  As Paul Arden once pointed out, if the counterflex is not too great, this amount of apparent loop opening can get, "sucked up" as the loop travels and unfurles.  G.

On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 9:19 PM, michael Jones <mdjonesdog@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

QUESTIONS ON THE TABLE:

1.) TORQUE.  WHAT IS IT ?

Torque is the torsional twisting of the rod on its' linear axis,  Like turning or twisting a screwdriver at its' grip.

2.) HOW DOES IT AFFECT CASTING ?

Torque can result in angular bends in subsequent casts/presentations of the line.

3.) HOW CAN WE USE IT  ?

We can use torque twisting to rapidly change the direction of anchor placement in spey casting, as well as using torque to abruptly twist a cast in a positive curve-cast in presentation casting (demonstrate both).

4.) HOW CAN WE AVOID IT ? ( THE LATTER ESPECIALLY WITH TWO HANDED RODS WHERE CAN BE A PROBLEM )

By sweeping the rod tip through a smoother and larger path, tight torsional twisting of the rod can be avoided (demonstrate).

Michael Jones

On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Gordy Hill <masterstudygroup@xxxxxxxxxxx>

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From Soon Lee.  His comment in blue in my answer to Bryan Nims :-

 

1.) The path of the rod tip is the main determinant of loop size.  Straight line path = small ("tight") loop.

Straight line path of the rod tip results in parallel/perfect loop (upper leg of loop parallel with lower leg) shaped narrow or wide. Loop size on the other hand is determined by the extent the rod tip dips after the stop (per your examples 2 and 3 below).

Of course without straight line path of the rod tip we deviate from parallel loops to open and closed loops.  

2.) When you have a great distance for your, "speed up and stop", your rod tip dips down farther from the oncoming line than when this distance is short.  This forms a convex rod tip path at the end of the stroke.  THIS YIELDS A LARGE LOOP.

3.)  When you have a short distance for your, "speed up and stop", your rod tip dips down only a short distance from the oncoming line (and prior straight line path of the rod tip), so you have very little convexity of your rod tip path at the end of the stroke.  THIS YIELDS A SMALL LOOP.

 

    Soon