Curves / hooks

Walter & Group....

On curves & hooks from Jeff Barefoot:

Hi Gordy,

Bruce R. and I have been in an ongoing discussion about the tip’s counter

flex creating the shape or apex of the hooking layout. Bruce’s position is

if the cast is overpowered then the shock wave from the C/flex is pulled out

straight. I’m sure you can see his point. Even in your own demonstrations

of creating aerial mends you teach your students "no more loop speed than

necessary ,so not to pull the effects of your mend out straight". I

proposed that the overpowered loop bounced back into slack and then the

shockwave from the purposely accentuated c/flex manipulated this slack into

the hooking layout. Bruce didn’t buy it. Also relating to this, I have

created almost 180 deg hooking layouts by releasing a late shoot and

[bowing] feeding more slack just at turnover on an overpowered loop. I am

waiting for the opportunity to demo Bruce some of these casts in person.

Maybe then we can model them. I’m interested in your take on this.

To address the original question of the difference between a curve and a

hook is that in general a curving layout lays in a larger radius. A hook

lays in a sharper radius. Kind of gray I know, sorry.

Jeff B.

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Jeff...

You are right about my teaching on the mends.  I don't see that as quite the same thing as an overpowered curve cast, however.  When I make an overpowered curve cast without following it by making an immediate mend in the opposite direction, I don't get nearly the desired result of the apex of the curve being as distinct as I'd like.  I think that's because Bruce Richards is correct in that the overpowered move DOES tend to negate much of the rod's counterflex.  THAT IS WHY I PROVIDE THE MEND IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF THE CAST.  By exaggerating this, I get the best 90 degree hook.

In the event I'm challanged to make a pure hook cast, then I can't use the mend move after the stop.  In that instance, I'll carry less line, try for less distance, and modify the overpowered move so that true counterflex can occur to help deliver the belly of the line in the direction opposite the cast.

The same thing applies for the curve cast done with a vertical rod plane by twisting the wrist.  This is depicted in Ed Jaworowski's book, THE CAST.  He teaches that the torsional movement of the rod tip which sends the fly in the direction of the torque applied by the hand/wrist is followed by an, "untwisting" of the rod tip as it returns to it's untorqued state. (My personal observations of his teaching... not his books.)  When I try to do this I do get a curve cast, but it is not nearly as dramatic a curve as I can get by instantly twisting the rod in the direction opposite the twist of the cast after the stop.  When I do that, I submit I have added a torque mend.

I can get away with overpowering an aerial mend to place it way out over 50' ....... but only if I form the mend and then shoot the whole thing out.  This may be sort of what you are teaching as you deliver slack.  The whole idea, to me, is to prevent the overpowered delivery to come tight to the rod tip, for  (as you point out) if it does, it WILL straighten out the mend.

Re your comment on the difference in the radii of curves and hooks ..... I see no gray area at all.   This IS the difference in the layouts.  Period.

Gordy

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From Mac Brown...

Gordy,

Some good stuff  on the curves. I was going to list some other points for Chris to play with for enhancing even larger curves. The line hand may also play a large role for these various curves by hauling twice for the delivery cast-haul as normal the first one, the second one matches counterflex (reverse thrust  is what I called it in Casting Angles). This reverse thrust accelerates the fly leg. The big key would be the delayed shooting of line which is not when the rod stops but micro seconds later (basically right after the second haul described above). This delayed shoot can actually lead to curves which come back on themselves like a ? (question mark) .  

 

The other key which no one ever seems to talk about with these curves in a vertical plane (left /right ) -watching Lefty and Ed do them for years at shows talking about the hand going fast to the right or left which leads to the curves.  The hand has little to do with it compared to the loop plane. Many great casters throw great curves to the left because the loop plane originated slightly off side to the right. They try to throw the curve to the right while the same loop plane is off slightly to the right and it just does not work. The key to fix it? Loop plane must be slightly off to the left. Now, why has no one ever talked about that in books, mags, or video with this being one of the most literate sports out there? Food for thought.

 

Cheers, Mac Brown

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Mac....

 

Yes ! The question mark curve layout.  Just as you describe it.

 

For a long time I tried to make decent curve casts just the way they are depicted in Ed Jaworowski's book on p. 132.  Mine don't ever come out nearly as well as his.  They DO when I make that change of loop planes.  Hard to tell if Lefty and Ed are doing it that way without standing (or crouching) in front or behind them as they do that.

 

Jeff Barefoot gave us a beautiful demo of the use of loop planes about 3 years ago.  Some of the casters didn't follow his description or observations at all and discounted his teaching.  Frankly, his demo and description was very clear to me

 

As I read Ed Jaworowski's description of making a hook to the left (p. 130, THE CAST) I quote: " Simply hold the rod well off the vertical position, to the side. Cast a little harder thqn normal and stop the rod very smartly.  You can think, "push the thumb to the left" or, "turn the knuckles to the left" as long as you make the motion brief and the tip finishes with a quick curve to the left (stying the same distance above the water, not moving downward).  The line will go forward an snap around sharply to the left and fall to the water in that configuration. "

His three photos on p. 131 are consistant with this description, but the close up three photos on p. 132 do not.  These show the twist of the wrist with the fly rod remaining in the almost vertical rod plane.

Gordy

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