"wrist flip" - pointed loops / Casting faults & corrections

Walter & Group........

From Al Crise :-

Howdy Gordy

 here is something form Jay Clark on the piece from Bruce

ol Al

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Hi Al,

 

Interesting comments from Bruce. I agree too that Al doesn't get nearly enough credit for how much he has advanced our understanding casting styles and mechanics. Most new wavers have never even heard of him.

 

One thing that caught my eye that I thought was interesting, in this part:

 

18.In most cases, the final 20 to 30 degrees of wrist action quickly

tilted the butt of the rod forward, just prior to the stop. (What I’d

call a "wrist flip.")

 

****Al and Gary weren’t able to measure actual rod angular acceleration

so had to base this comment on visual observation. Especially in the

early 90’s it was widely believed that rod acceleration was slow at

first, fast later, which is what this implies. We now know that,

although it may look like acceleration is slow at first, fast later, the

best casters accelerate the rod at a very constant rate throughout the

stroke

 

Most American tournament casters thrust upwards at the end of the casting stroke and then naturally follow through with that "wrist flip". It kinda minimizes counterflex and pushes the rod tip out of the way a smidge. The resulting loop is aggressively top pointed. Al's use of the word 'stop' is in relation to a distance cast (where there is considerable follow through) which is a little different than a shorter distance cast of say 30' to 40' where there is more of a true abrupt stop.

 

Jay Clark

Al

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Al & Jay....

 

I look at that, "wrist flip" as last millisecond completion of the rotatory phase.  As I watch great competition distance casters, however, I see them get that sharp pointed loop by minimizing counterflex (as you said) with a combination of the "wrist flip" with a forward and upward thrust.

 

To give credit where it is due, it was Steve Rajeff who first demonstrated that to me a few years ago.

 

Tom White and I worked on this for a while and noted that if the forward thrust was more in an upward than a horizontal direction, that we could put more of a point on the loop and shape it a bit differently than if we made that forward thrust in a slightly more horizontal than an upward direction.  The timing is split second critical.

 

Tom got a lot better at that than I, for sure !

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From Guy Manning:  (My comments after his in red italics.   Gordy) ( TAM is Troy Miller )

Comments on some of the points in the conversation between Al and TAM. My comments in this color.

So here are some problems What do you do to change them

1. Line makes a BIG loop on the back and forward cast?

 

Check for,

4.      A convex tip path being made by pivoting from the elbow. Adjust the stroke so that the elbow moves laterally as well as vertically.

A convex path can be created by pivoting from the elbow only and not using the shoulder and wrist pivots also as most good casters will.

Since movements should be described from the point of view of the caster, and not the instructor standing off to the side, the term “lateral” is used incorrectly here. Lateral means from side to side. A lateral movement would cause tracking errors. This is kind of a pet peeve of mine as I see the term misused even by the engineers on different casting forums. It may be lateral to you the instructor because it passes from side to side in relation to you but it is incorrect to call a front to rear, or an up and down motion, lateral.

I agree completely with Guy, here.  Perhaps by the word, "lateral" , a forward or linear direction was implied. (?)

3. Line tails on the forward cast?

 A tailing loop occurs when the fly leg buckles down and crosses the rod leg of the loop. This loop deformation results from the rod tip having described a concave path during the casting stroke. A concave tip path can be caused by,

 3. Lack of a forward loading move

8. Unexpected preload

I don’t understand what either of these are trying to describe.

Lack of a loading move when one is needed is one description by Joan Wulff for a way of making a tail. (JOAN WULFF'S FLY CASTING TECHNIQUES, p. 73, P/ 2 :  " The single most common cause, in my experience is lack of a loading move when one is needed."

 The idea is that you need a longer stroke with what she calls a loading move when you are carrying lots of line for a long cast.  If you shorten your stroke by having no loading move, you go right into her, "power snap".  This can yield the application of so much acceleration early in the stroke that it can't be maintained.  A concave rod tip path results followed by a tail.

Unexpected preload is a little used term for, "bounce back" or "recoil".  Jon Cave has made a point of this as another problem which, when it occurs at the end of the back cast, can have the effect of shortening the available stroke length for the forward cast.  The shorter stroke length for the amount of line carried can encourage the caster (who feels less load than he expects) to apply a spike of power early in the forward stroke.   Same net effect as above ..... that spike of power yields brief burst of acceleration which can't be maintained, ergo a dip and return of the rod tip (concave tip path) and a tail.

These are just two of 18 different maneuvers which I once collected as productive of a tail.   They ALL had the common denominator of a concave rod tip path caused by inapropriate application of power such that initial rapid acceleration could not be maintained ...... except one.   That exception is the tailing loop caused by a concavity BETWEEN back cast and forward cast with the rod plane remaining unchanged.  (example:  High back cast followed by horizontal forward cast with less than 180 degrees between the two.)  This is clearly depicted in Mac Brown's, CASTING ANGLES, pp. 97 -104, "Box exercises".

 

8. Leader and 6 ft of line pile at the end of the cast?

 This could be caused by,

1. An underpowered high trajectory cast (pile cast). Add power (if undesired).
2. An overpowered bounce-back cast(tuck cast). Reduce power (if undesired).
3. A tailing loop entangling the rod leg. Remedy the tailing loop (see above).

The above, or :

Potential leader design problem.  If the rest of the flyline unrolls properly, I'd first look to see that the leader is appropriate for the size of fly.  If the taper occurs too early (or the entire leader is constructed from tippet size material), then the leader will not be able to continue transferring the flyline's energy smoothly.  Leader collapse is the result.

May be using a line weight that's too light for the requirements (like trying to cast a big deer hair popper on a 4 weight rod).  Your only choice may be to up the line weight of the system to something more appropriate.   

The answer to some students' problem may lie in the equipment, not the technique.  There are some things that aren't possible even for the most expert caster.  As an instructor, you need to be able to identify that for them.  It's even better if you can tell them WHY it doesn't work.

TAM is correct in that, often, the gear causes problems. A common one for beginners using trout lines is that they have standard WF lines and get to the point where they can false cast out to 50 feet or so then their false cast falls apart. The students solution is usually to start making longer strokes (wider casting arcs) in an effort to get back into control. The problem is often caused by a less than perfect, but not bad for a beginner, casting stroke and trying to control the line with running line outside of the tip. Give them the same rod with a long belly line on it and the problem disappears. This helps to show them that they need to work on technique some more to master the lines they have. The long belly line is not the right fix, developing better form is. The line is just a tool for demonstrating what is going wrong.

Agree !   Even when coaching MCCI candidates, I find the most common problem with their distance cast is that they tend to false cast until they have more line out of the rod than they can handle perfectly.  Often they do that even with the long belly lines, because at that level of training, they'll sometimes STILL false cast with as much as 65' of line out without having developed the ability to handle the running line which is behind that long belly.

To help correct that, I have them false cast repeatedly with increasing lengths of line until they can no longer do it with high line speed and perfect tight loops.  We, then, back off a couple of feet .... and more if needed until we get to the length of line they can handle expertly.   I mark that point, with a nail knot of 4lb. test mono around their fly line.  They can feel that as they cast.  If they miss the feel, it will click in the guides.  THAT tells them to allow no more line to escape the rod prior to their presentation cast.  It's a bit of magic !

This concept is taught well by Bill Gammel.   It is the basis of his teaching distance casting on his video, "TEACHING YOURSELF TO FLY CAST."   (When he first came out with this video, I told him he should have named it, " One Foot At A Time."   Watch it and you'll see what I meant.)

There can be other reasons for the line piling up and not laying out straight.  One is well described by Ed Jaworoski; Problem # 9, p.22,  TROUBLESHOOTING THE CAST.  " Cause:  The abbreviated answer is that the rod simply didn't have enough bend, or load, to straighten and throw that much line or combination of line and fly."  (Not enough hand acceleration or tip speed.)   He, also, points out that this can happen when the caster doesn't stop quickly enough.)

 

When working with heavy rods and sinking lines and heads, you will often see the line and leader in a pile (this is much more apparent on grass than on water (water masks how much line you have to strip in before the fly moves). The cause is improper dissipation of energy at turn over, in this case very little dissipation of energy. Sinking lines usually have abrupt front tapers to insure turnover of the fly, but what good does that do you if your leader is not designed to  accommodate the hard turnover. What you get is the line turning the fly over hard, right down into the water below the tip of the line. You suffer a loss of accuracy as well as a pretty good hit on your distance. Casting on grass I can often make 4 or 5 three foot strips back in before the fly moves. That is the difference between a 75 foot cast and a 90 foot cast. That can cost you a lot of fish if they are busting 80 to 90 feet from the boat.

I know that the common solution for the salt water people is to make a short flat leader and let it ride. Others will create longer hand tied leaders made from 40-30-25-20 lb materials consecutively. But even with a 40-20-20 ratio leader these get kicked over hard by many of the sinking lines.

As stated above, we need to know when the problem is gear related.

Good call !   (Guy has sent me a private message stating that the formula, above, is a misprint.  He meant, "40-30-20". I told him, we sometimes use the formula: " 60-20-20 " in the salt ..... but that I look at both of these formulae as a generic baseline which is often modified to suit conditions including fly size and wt.)

 

7. Back cast has 2 loops points  or a square front section?     ___]  kind of like that.

This could be caused by the caster lowering the rod tip and then creeping, immediately after the back cast stop. Make a proper stop. Consider drifting.

 

I think the loop would appear more like this: __ ]  leaning backwards, not straight up and down.

 

  I see this quite a bit in intermediate and advanced casters and always in the backcast, never in the front. It is caused when a basic element of the cast, the ”positive” stop, breaks down and becomes a soft stop. The result is almost always accompanied by a stroke that is longer than necessary for the amount of line extended, ending with the tip pointed a bit too low.

The initial accelerated part of the back cast is fine, but then in an effort to control the longer line, the rod tip is driven back lower than it needs to be and is not abruptly decelerated, but instead decelerated over a longer period of time.

Yes.  A so-called, "2-stage" back cast can do it, too.   (learned that from Gary Borger.)

 

The upper angle is where the loop would have been had it not been pulled open by the soft stop, which creates the lower angle.

 

This can also be caused by an upright style caster who adds rearward body English from the waist up during the back cast. This in effect forces a soft stop to the rod even though the caster may have had a great positive stop. The body English causes the slow down and extended length of the stop.

 

I don’t see it as being related to creeping. As for poor haul timing I will have to think about that.

I don't, either.     On the haul:   Perhaps two hauls near the end of the same stroke will do it ...... (????)

Gordy

 

Guy Manning

FFF Master Certified Casting Instructor

Moderator FFFCCI Yahoo Group

www.castflys.com