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  • Our Coffee Meeting / Haul release



    Walter & Group........

    Group Coffee Meeting at Livingston :-

    From Molly Semenik :

    Please announce it to the group. Thursday, August 2nd at 6:00 a.m.

    MT cup coffee house on main street in the Park Place building across from the

    Northern Pacific Beanery.

    Molly

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    Answers to the question of when to release the Haul in relation to what is happening on the rod hand side:-

    From Bruce Richards:


    Gordy,
    We haven't studied the haul release, but I think we know enough about how
    all this works to now to say fairly conclusively what it should be.
    If the line is released before RSP I think it is obvious this would reduce
    the effectiveness of the cast. If the line is released after RSP we are, in
    essence, pulling on the bottom leg which we know will speed the top leg
    forcing an earlier turnover, this will shorten the cast. Of course, if the
    cast was underpowered this might be a good thing, but if the power was
    right for the length of line, an earlier turnover will still shorten the
    cast.
    I think most of us intuitively know that the release should happen right at
    RSP for best results, and everything I know about the physics of casting
    supports that. Not scientific proof, but certainly what makes the most
    sense, and also what we do in practice. The haul analyzer did clearly show
    that my haul stops at RSP on a moderate distance cast, and I assume we'd
    see the same on a long cast.
    Bruce

    Scientific Anglers/3M
    4100 James Savage Rd.
    Midland, MI  48642  USA
    Tel:  989-496-1113
    Fax:  989-496-3374

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    From Jeff Wagner:

    Gordy,

    I am in Gardiner Montana working on Westslope Cutthroat trout

    relocation with the National Park service. Hot and a few fires in the

    area, but overall a great place.

    Anyway, I noticed your question about release of the haul. I believe

    that most great casters release after RSP and into counterflex. I

    have some video that I think shows this. Theoretically it may not be

    the most efficient place to release. However, in the real world of

    slack and imperfect loops this appears to allow for more tension to be

    kept in the line and less slack and a more efficient shoot. In some

    instances it may even go past counterflex back to RSP but this appears

    to be less effecient because of the timing.

    It also appears to me that the haul continues past the stop of the

    hand as the tip continues to travel, increasing line speed. However,

    for teaching purposes (much like teaching the stop as a stop instead

    of a rapid deceleration) I still teach that the haul hand mimics the

    rod hand as it appears that only very experienced casters show this

    characteristic.

    Just a few thoughts to stir the pot!

    --

    Jeff Wagner

    Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers

    Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear

    Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear

    Redington Pro Staff

    970-481-5887

    jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    www.dhflyfishing.com

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    From Troy Miller:-

    IMO, if you wait UNTIL the unloading phase to begin your haul, you will cause massive aberrations in RTP right as you’re ready to create your loop.  I don’t want to deflect the tip an any “difficult to control” manner anytime from the start of the stroke until the loop has escaped.  Maybe this is just me, but loop shape/character is much more important to distance than maybe a 5 fps increase in muzzle velocity.  Smooth acceleration to stop is right for me – both on my rod hand and on my haul hand.  

     

    Don’t surprise ANYTHING in the system until the stop.

     

    I’ve been teaching that for 20+ years, exactly those words.  Maybe I should register that as my own profound statement…  J

     

    Regards -- TAM

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    From Walter Simberski:-

    Gordy - This is some excellent stuff from Al.
     
    Something you might be interested in:
     
    http://one.revver.com/watch/314935
    http://one.revver.com/watch/314927
    http://one.revver.com/watch/314942
    http://one.revver.com/watch/315059
     
    These are excellent high speed videos of some extremely good casters double hauling. One thing
    I notice in these videos is that, like the rod hand, the line hand does not come to an abrupt stop.
    While the haul is nearly complete at RSP and begins to slow down quickly it continues into the
    counterflex stage. I suspect that an abrupt end to the haul would have similar effects as an abrupt
    stop, i.e. shocking the rod and line resulting in shock waves. Continuing with a slower rotation
    of the rod hand and slower haul help dampen the counterflex/rebound and remove the shock waves.
     
    Walter

     

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    More from Walter:

    Gordy - The "standard" view would be to release line just as the loop is formed, i.e.
    just after RSP. But, based on the email I just sent you, the end of the haul contributes
    to dampening the amount of counterflex so the release should happen just at the end of
    counterflex at the start of rebound.
     
    Walter
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    From Jerry Puckett :-
     
    Jerry & Group....
     
    QUESTION: We've determined that an efficient haul is completed at RSP.  That is true when we false cast.  Now when making our delivery cast,  our haul doesn't stop, but rather there is a point at which we release the line with the line hand.  That point of line release is best accomplished:
    -
    a.) At RSP.
     
    b.) Just after RSP, during counterflex.
     
    c.) During rebound, following counterflex.   Jerry Puckett
     
    d.) Just prior to RSP, at the STOP of the hand motion.
     
    e.) Just prior to the STOP.
     
    Gordy
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    My Comment:    So far, despite the fact that this has not been completely studied from a scientific standpoint, it appears that the release of the haul is best accomplished either AT RSP or DURING COUNTERFLEX which immediately follows.  We are talking about milliseconds of difference, here.
     
    Final studies may well show that this exact release point may depend upon what cast we want to accomplish .... tiny differences depending upon the distance desired or whether or not to, "force" a turnover of the loop.
     
    Gordy
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