Casting fast vs. slow rods

Walter & Group........

From Joe Libeu (CBOG):

Hi Everyone,

Well, I don't know about the shops across the country, but most of us at the shop that I help out part time will spend a little time with the client and try and determine there needs, experience, budget, etc.  We then will take out a min. of 4-5 rods within the budget if they have one and see what one works best for them. I often find that sales people try and make your decision.  This is not about what cast good for me but what works best for the client. 

Once out side, I will work with the client a little on there casting, grip, etc.,  then work through the rods and see what one feels better or that they cast better with.  During this time, I offer no opinion.  It is up to the client, I will often have them close there eyes so the other senses are in tune to help them feel the rods.  Once they have cast all the rods, we then start out again with 2 rods and eliminate one and so on until they decide on what one works the best.  It is only at this time will I give them any input as to what my thoughts and observation were. 

 

Now to the question of rods, if I knew that I had a beginning individual for say 10 lessons, I would use a slower softer rod.  I like to have the students get the feeling of a rod loading and unloading etc.  There are many times I will take a line heavier than what they have on there rod so they can achieve this feeling.

Joe Libeu
Sierra Pacific Fishing Adventures
310-749-6771

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Comment:  Great comments, Joe  .....   If all shops did it this way, we'd have no problem.  Problem is that in many areas, the shops may well not have the advice and assistance of top notch instructors.

Gordy

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From Mac Brown:-

Hi Gordy and Group,

Thanks for getting Travis in touch with me. The quality of casters in the clinic seem to get better each year. To answer the question briefly; slow down the stroke, may need to change hand path a bit for keeping the SLP, longer stroke, and a timing change because energy transfer occurs more slowly, etc.. to name a few.

I guess it depends on what cast we are attempting to accomplish. Better for short distances-requires less effort. Line pick-up is easier as well because it is a better shock absorber. Slower tends to require less effort for on the water line control. All of the spirals, ellipses, full circle, casts will rank high on the style points!

Have a great weekend to all.

Mac Brown

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Comment:  Mac is right on target, as I see it.   In other words, one must change: 1.) CADENCE  (timing between the back cast and forward cast), 2.) the STROKE (path taken by the hand) and 3.)  the TIP TRAVEL (distance travelled by the rod tip... product of both stroke length and rod arc.) when switching from fast to slow rods and vice-versa.  The whole idea being to maintain CONTROL of loop formation and presentation by maintaining mastery of the desired TIP PATH.     Gordy

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From Lewis Hinks (New Group member):

Hi Gordy,

 

    Here is my first contribution to this great discussion group. I am really enjoying 'lurking' and learning by keeping my digital mouth shut and my eyes open.

 

    I have these two types of rods and offer the following.

 

    1. Casting stroke is a longer, not huge but a noticeable for the slower action rod.   

 

    2. The casting stroke is slower, but again just slow enough for the rod to act.

 

    3. The application of power, or snap is a bit longer, or takes starts a little bit sooner, again to allow the rod time to react.

 

    I hope I have not lived up the the old saying, 'Better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.'

 

    Talk soon I hope.

Lewis

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Lewis....    Can't disagree.   Gordy

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From David Lambert, MCCI:

 

Gordy, hey:

Has the definitive work been yet written on fastness verses stiffness?

I've heard many differing theories on this -- soft rods, fasts tips. Are

these products of compound tapers?. Many of them claim a basis in hard

science but tell differing stories. Is it a language issue -- couch vs

sofa? Hard to determine which is science and which is pseudo?

Thanks,

David

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David .... Don't think it has.  Orvis and some other companies have marketed rods based on various interpretations of their flex profiles.  I know of no, "standards" which have been established by any organization.  One thing which makes this difficult to standardize is that it is not only the flexibility of the rod itself, but where the rod flexes.  One soft rod may bend more at the tip, another at mid section, and a third relatively more at the butt section.  Of course, the same is true of fast rods.

Just a few years back it seemed that hot competition dictated the selling of rods based upon the number of millions of modulus measurement.

As you know, a soft rod can be made from high modulus fibers, and a stiff one from low modulus fibers.  The action of the rod is a combination of the modulus of its materials and its design parameters.  I think professional rod designers would agree that the latter is the more important of the two.  

 ..............  Gordy

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From Jeff Barefoot, MCCI :-

Hi Gordy,

If you look out for the customer’s best interest first the bottom line

takes care of itself because of the business generated from earned

reputation. At times this may mean demystifying some of the marketing

strategy that the manufacturers create to push their products. Some of the

marketing is legitimate some is not. The best pro shops act as a buffer and

clarify the choices of selecting tackle, not confuse. A knowledgeable shop

would never push something like faster and stiffer, and that a customer must

buy the most expensive models to satisfy their needs. A good pro shop

guides the customer in making a purchase that’s based on satisfying his or

her own individual parameters. As a matter of fact a good pro shop would not

sell a customer with poor skills a rod to mask their inadequacies, but

instead offer at no cost the lessons needed to bring that customers skills

up to snuff before the purchase. Now the customer has the ability to

evaluate the differences of one rod to the next based on there own decision

instead of a salesman’s opinion or the manufacturers marketing hype. This

is the essence of customer service. It is the edge that the small pro shop

usually has over the internet or large retailer not set up to cater in this

way.

Jeff Barefoot

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Jeff:  Couldn't agree more .  This stands as one good reason the, "real" fly shops and pro shops will survive the onslaught of the BIG BOX STORE MEGA SHOPS.  Same with the sales of golf equipment.                  ...........  Gordy

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From Robert Shigley:

Hi Gordy;

 

I do have two soft or full flex rods and only use them in the tight streams of the Smokies. I guess it is a situation of "feel". I just seem to cast slower and can handle short distances well with this type of rod in the midst of heavy over hanging trees, small casting distances, and not knowing what size trout I might hang up with. I use a 4 and 5wt. and have caught small trout to monsters in small streams in the Smokies. The soft rod or full flex loads all the way to the butt and allows good casting skills with extreme concentration, and with light line I can handle a good size fish without breaking the rod, and able to hold him in the fight longer than with a fast tip without the fly coming loose. Also, with a soft rod I use one that is shorter - 71/2 to 81/2 in length. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the soft rod must be shorter than a medium or fast tip action rod.

 

robert

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Robert:   Shorter, "soft" rods give me a better feel of control when casting.  When fighting a large fish, however, there is a trade-off between protecting fine tippets and providing enough power to avoid  exhausting a fish you wish to release.  The longer, limber rod protects the tippet, while the shorter one tends to, "protect the fish".  When fighting large fish, one thing which is very important is the EFFECTIVE ROD LENGTH .  (Also makes a difference with casting and with line control.)  It has been defined as the chord that subtends the arc of the fully bent rod.   This is an explanation of why the effective length of a soft 10' rod may well be less than that of an 8' stiff rod.    ( Check out  THE TECHNOLOGY OF FLY RODS by Don Phillips, pp. 44-47).

Gordy

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From Michael Jones: -

I just spent a full day at a cane fly rod builders conclave up here in

Maine: Superboo IV. It was the first opportunity I have had to cast

a slower action rod since our Marlborough FFF meeting with Rod McGarry.

You left me with an assignment to consider slow action vs fast action

rods, and I have come up with a few observations.

Considering rods of the same line weight, length, and mass, but only

adjusting the modulus of the rod, my guess is that there are some

factors to consider in regards to translation/rotation, velocity at

rod tip, rod tip travel, & drift.

Translation/rotation: Slower rod (decreased modulus): longer

translation, later rotation.

Velocity at rod tip (just prior to stop): Slower rod: same as fast.

Rod tip travel: Slower rod: increased rod tip travel during SLP

Drift: Although this may be related to style more than substance, I

find myself adding (future) casting stroke length, by drifting after

the perceived 'stop' more-so with a softer action rod. It is my

perception that this may help in lengthening the stroke and potential

rod tip travel (obvious), but may also dampen rebound forces,which

should theoretically be more pronounced (wiggles in rod-leg of loop)

with a softer rod.

If I were more versed in physics, I would guess that this is some

equation related to WORK, and by that the work is related to the

weight of the object (fly line), and influenced by many things (loop

size, air resistance, efficiency), but for the purpose of discussion

and these variables being constant, then: velocity should be the one

variable that derives how long the fly line will travel relative to

gravitational forces.

The mechanisms (rods) have to match in terms of rod tip velocity to

achieve the WORK requirements. A fast rod can attain this with a

shorter casting stroke, decreased SLP tip travel, and some translation

& rotation...whereas: the slow rod attains this velocity at the rod

tip with a longer casting stroke, increased SLP tip travel, longer

translation (and possibly drift), and delayed rotation.

Given a fixed model like this, I would be interested to see if you

could measure tip travel in inches, and compare (and proportion)

translation and rotational forces (and proportions) and their input.

My guess is that translation and rotation do not change largely in

percentage/proportion, but rather only APPEAR to be more 'seperate'

and 'unique' with increased tip travel...just a guess. You would

probably need both video analysis and some medium to measure

rotational forces over time to measure this relationship.

Michael Jones

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Michael..   Good work on your assignment !   You have gotten to the point of some things we have not yet measured.  I'm not a physicist either ... but I'll bet the amount of work put in to a cast of a given distance with the same weight tackle for the soft and the fast rod will probably be about the same.

As I watch elite casters with an eye to relative amounts of translation and rotation, I'm coming to the conclusion that this may turn out to be a matter of STYLE.  The fact that you need both for an efficient cast, I look at as SUBSTANCE.  

Years ago, Floyd Franke (CBOG) gave me many tough, "assignments" to complete.  We now look at this sort of thing as part of the mentoring concept so important to the development of a Master.  (Check out Jim Valle's article in the last issue of the LOOP.  see: http://www.fedflyfishers.org/loop.php)

Gordy    

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