ol Al....
My calculations on the line wts. was done with the assumption that a small, light fly is being used. Once you go to a heavy/large fly, that does require a heavier system.....note that for better results you need a heavier SYSTEM.....often not enough simply to increase the wt. designation of the line.
Gordy
From: "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Rod Henderson" <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Jerry Puckett" <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Mc Quary" <codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Wes Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>,"Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>,"Travis Burt" <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Sonny Hinojosa" <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>,"Dennis Burns" <Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Marshall Lasswell" <mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"jeff jackson" <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>,"Rusty dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Dale Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>,"gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>,"keith Richard" <KRichard@xxxxxxx>,"Steve Hollensed" <stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Allen Thomas" <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Matt Wilhem" <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"LC Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ken Cole" <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"james Parker" <james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"James Russell" <jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>,"Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Gary Wood" <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>,"Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>,"dave Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>,"Clay Roberts" <CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"cindy Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>,"Stacy Trimble" <stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Steve Barlow" <steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"john Deardorff" <jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"david Bradley" <dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>,"Troy Miller" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>,"ol Al" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Don McCurry" <donmcmurry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Kevin Hensley" <jargo432@xxxxxxxxx>,"Ronnie Ray" <Ronnie.Ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: FW: FW: FW: loops Fall?
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 15:34:39 -0600
Howdy Troy.IF you are right in your statement. The expert rifle shooters would use 400 grain bullets for shooting distance. not the 27 CAL or .222 cal The small surface of the smaller line will have less drag. (NO FLY) just line. Now the 9 weight line will drag a big fly along that the 4 will not. This is the light high speed vs. the heavy power house. it take much more energy to get the big line moving. The mass in movement is going to keep moving unless acted on by out side forces. like air drag. The greater Surface area of the 9 wt line offers more linier air drag also.ol AlAllen Crise FFF Master Casting InstructorSOC VP of EducationHawk Ridge Flycasting School2508 A County Road 1011Glen Rose, TX 76043254-897-2045geocities.com/rrdoctorflysoup@xxxxxxxxxx-----Original Message-----
From: Miller, Troy [mailto:Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 3:04 PM
To: Gordon Hill; flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx; sobbobfish@xxxxxxx; rtab@xxxxxxx; CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx; creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; dan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; daver@xxxxxxxxxx; dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx; captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx; ephemera@xxxxxxx; brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx; barefootj@xxxxxxx; bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx; ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx; mkreider1@xxxxxxx; martyt@xxxxxxxxxx; niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx; pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; bigfly@xxxxxxxxx; whorwood@xxxxxxxxx; flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; sheila@xxxxxxxxxx; scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx; cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: sportfisher@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx; caddis@xxxxxxx; Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx; cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx; crazycharlie@xxxxxxx; croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx; DermSox@xxxxxxx; gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxx; gavin@xxxxxxxxxxx; iverson@xxxxxxxxx; jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx; jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx; captsilverking@xxxxxxx; till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; kathleen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx; plami@xxxxxxxxxxx; ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; kerrrc@xxxxxxxxx; simbirsw@xxxxxxx; bobbeanblossomFFF@xxxxxxxxxxx; hillcathy@xxxxxxx; dnewpher@xxxxxxxxxxxx; donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx; douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx; erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx; flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx; gregrahe@xxxxxxxxxxx; hlhpc@xxxxxxx; jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; jhara.carter@xxxxxxxxxxx; harveyjl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx; skifishvail@xxxxxxxx; jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx; trallag@xxxxxxx; captflyrod@xxxxxxx; mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; fraudflies@xxxxxxx; shane@xxxxxxxxx; snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: FW: FW: loops Fall?Again, I failed to make myself clear. I meant to write that the 9-weight line is used on a 9-weight rod of the same manufacturer?s rod series. I completely agree that you would seriously overload the 4-weight rod (probably to the point of breakage) if you attempted to distance cast the 9-weight line on the 4-weight rod.
So, let me try to say it again, more clearly this time.
If I take a Miller Manufacturing ?Blister? series rod, expertly designed to cast a 4-weight flyline and loaded it with a standard WF4F flyline of any reputable manufacture, I might expect to get an 80 foot cast out of it. Then, I take a Miller Manufacturing ?Blister? series rod designed to cast a 9-weight flyline and load it up with a standard 9-weight WF line and cast it for max distance. I believe I?ll be able to cast well in excess of 100 feet with this setup. The reason is that I?ve got considerably more momentum with the 9-weight, and although I may not have quite the muzzle velocity, my retained energy downrange is much greater with the heavier bullet. Does that paint a better picture, hopefully?
Regarding overlining/underlining a rod, I agree with everything you wrote and have for 20+ years. Thanks
Regards -- TAM
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Hill [mailto:hillshead@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 2:25 PM
To: Miller, Troy; flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx; sobbobfish@xxxxxxx; rtab@xxxxxxx; CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx; creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; dan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; daver@xxxxxxxxxx; dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx; captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx; ephemera@xxxxxxx; brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx; barefootj@xxxxxxx; bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx; ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx; mkreider1@xxxxxxx; martyt@xxxxxxxxxx; niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx; pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; bigfly@xxxxxxxxx; whorwood@xxxxxxxxx; flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; sheila@xxxxxxxxxx; scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx; cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: sportfisher@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx; caddis@xxxxxxx; Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx; cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx; crazycharlie@xxxxxxx; croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx; DermSox@xxxxxxx; gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxx; gavin@xxxxxxxxxxx; hillshead@xxxxxxx; iverson@xxxxxxxxx; jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx; jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx; captsilverking@xxxxxxx; till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; kathleen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx; plami@xxxxxxxxxxx; ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; kerrrc@xxxxxxxxx; simbirsw@xxxxxxx; bobbeanblossomFFF@xxxxxxxxxxx; hillcathy@xxxxxxx; dnewpher@xxxxxxxxxxxx; donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx; douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx; erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx; flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx; gregrahe@xxxxxxxxxxx; hlhpc@xxxxxxx; jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; jhara.carter@xxxxxxxxxxx; harveyjl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx; skifishvail@xxxxxxxx; jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx; trallag@xxxxxxx; captflyrod@xxxxxxx; mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; fraudflies@xxxxxxx; shane@xxxxxxxxx; snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: FW: FW: loops Fall?
Troy....
Depends upon the rating of that, "particular" rod. This will make a mountain of difference. Here's what I mean.
If you are casting a rod designed to best handle a #4 line (A so-called 4-wt. rod) then you can cast a 4 wt. line farther than you can a 9 wt. line....because that 9 wt. line will overload your rod.
Should you wish to make a really long distance cast with that 4 wt. rod, you would do best with a lower rated line...say a 3 wt. line or even a 2 wt. line.......because these lines "become" 4 and 5 wt. lines as you carry more and more line out of the rod tip before your presentation cast.
Now let's take the rod designated as a 9 wt.rod. This one is designed to handle a 9 wt. line for short (30+ feet) casts. You can make longer casts, but when you do you go toward overloading the rod as you get to carry say 70' of line. For that reason, you will more easily make very long casts by underlining this 9 wt. rod with an 8 wt. or a 7 wt. line. A 4 wt. line would require more line carried out of the rod tip to, "become" a 9 wt. line........and you might, then, be carrying more line than you can handle properly.
The general rule is that for long belly lines usually used for distance casting, you increase the wt. of the line carried by each 5' to 6' of line beyond the first 30'........so a 7 wt. line becomes approximately a 9 wt. line when you carry 45' of line out of the rod tip when false casting. It becomes a 10 wt. line as you carry 50' while false casting.
Now that arithmatic increase in line wt. formula must be modified for short belly lines where it is true only for the length of the belly.....then the line wt, beyond that point increases less as length increases because you are out in the running line which weighs less per foot.
The converse is true :-
I sometimes over-line a rod if I'm to be making very short, "quick casts" as with some tarpon fishing where the fish may show up only 20' from me. Here, I'll load my 10 wt. fly rod with a 12 wt. line. That 12 wt. line becomes a 10 wt. at about 15' to 20' !!!! If I don't use that heavier line, I may not be able to load my rod sufficiently to throw a tarpon fly accurately.
Anyone contemplating these line calculations (or virtually anything to do with fly lines) should study Bruce Richards', MODERN FLY LINES.
Gordy
From: "Miller, Troy" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: FW: FW: loops Fall?
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 13:40:55 -0600I may not have made my point very clearly, I realized it after sending. What I mean is that if I have an ?average? WF4F line on a particular rod and make my longest cast, it will be NOWHERE NEAR as far as if I made the cast with an ?average? WF9F line on a rod of the same rod series, everything else held constant. Of course, this reaches a point of impracticality based on human physiology. I believe I could probably cast the ?average? 9-wt further than an ?average? 25-wt because I would not have sufficient strength to achieve any appreciable tip speed or rod loading with the heavy setup. KnowhatImean?
Regards -- TAM
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Hill [mailto:hillshead@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 1:33 PM
To: Miller, Troy; flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx; sobbobfish@xxxxxxx; rtab@xxxxxxx; CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx; creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; dan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; daver@xxxxxxxxxx; dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx; captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx; ephemera@xxxxxxx; brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx; barefootj@xxxxxxx; bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx; ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx; mkreider1@xxxxxxx; martyt@xxxxxxxxxx; niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx; pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; bigfly@xxxxxxxxx; whorwood@xxxxxxxxx; flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; sheila@xxxxxxxxxx; scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx; cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: sportfisher@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx; caddis@xxxxxxx; Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx; cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx; crazycharlie@xxxxxxx; croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx; DermSox@xxxxxxx; gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxx; gavin@xxxxxxxxxxx; hillshead@xxxxxxx; iverson@xxxxxxxxx; jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx; jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx; captsilverking@xxxxxxx; till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; kathleen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx; plami@xxxxxxxxxxx; ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; kerrrc@xxxxxxxxx; simbirsw@xxxxxxx; bobbeanblossomFFF@xxxxxxxxxxx; hillcathy@xxxxxxx; dnewpher@xxxxxxxxxxxx; donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx; douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx; erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx; flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx; gregrahe@xxxxxxxxxxx; hlhpc@xxxxxxx; jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; jhara.carter@xxxxxxxxxxx; harveyjl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx; skifishvail@xxxxxxxx; jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx; trallag@xxxxxxx; captflyrod@xxxxxxx; mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; fraudflies@xxxxxxx; shane@xxxxxxxxx; snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: FW: FW: loops Fall?
Troy....
Yes.... a line which is heavier/foot is more dense. The more dense it is, the smaller its diameter for the same mass. That translates into a line of the same weight designation travelling with less air/wind resistance......and, therefore, greater distance achieved with the same energy input by the caster.
That is one of several reasons for my using a sinking (dense) line even when fishing on the flats on days when the wind is really howling.
It might be the reason for excluding these lines for most competition casting events.
Gordy
From: "Miller, Troy" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bwrichards@xxxxxxx>, "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
CC: "Gary Wood" <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>, "Rusty dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "cindy Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>, "Ron Mc Quary" <codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Clay Roberts" <CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Sonny Hinojosa" <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>, "Dale Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>, "david Bradley" <dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>, "dave Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>, "Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>, "Dennis Burns" <Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Don McCurry" <donmcmurry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Matt Wilhem" <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Wes Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>, "ol Al" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>, "Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>, "gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>, "Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>, "james Parker" <james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Kevin Hensley" <jargo432@xxxxxxxxx>, "john Deardorff" <jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Jerry Puckett" <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>, "James Russell" <jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>, "Ken Cole" <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Ron Allen Thomas" <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "keith Richard" <KRichard@xxxxxxx>, "LC Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Marshall Lasswell" <mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Rod Henderson" <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Stacy Trimble" <stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Steve Hollensed" <stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>, "Steve Barlow" <steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Travis Burt" <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "jeff jackson" <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: FW: FW: loops Fall?
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 13:12:49 -0600
I'll add one thing to your final sentence, Bruce, which I believe to be
equally significant.
You wrote "a tight loop going fast goes farthest."
Please consider: "a tight loop of heavy line going fast goes farthest."
I know that we can get into a discussion of the diameter of the line and
air resistance, and that we should consider the density rather than the
weight of the flyline, yadda yadda, -- but for now, I'd just simplify it
as above.
Regards -- TAM
-----Original Message-----
From: bwrichards@xxxxxxx [mailto:bwrichards@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 9:06 AM
To: Allen Crise
Cc: Gary Wood; Rusty dunn; cindy Alexander; Ron Mc Quary; Clay Roberts;
Sonny Hinojosa; Dale Connally; david Bradley; dave Speer; Don DeRidder;
Dennis Burns; Don McCurry; Matt Wilhem; Wes Hodgson; ol Al; Gary Eaton;
gordon Hill; Harvey Harris; james Parker; Kevin Hensley; john Deardorff;
Jerry Puckett; James Russell; Ken Cole; Ron Allen Thomas; keith Richard;
LC Clower; Harry Boyd; Marshall Lasswell; Rod Henderson; Stacy Trimble;
Steve Hollensed; Steve Barlow; Travis Burt; John Till; jeff jackson;
Miller, Troy
Subject: Re: FW: FW: loops Fall?
Hi Al,
Yes, the easiest way to study the loop is to consider it like a bead
chain
and study what each bead does and the forces that act on it. Below is a
study done by Noel and one of his students that addresses the issue of
why
loops don't fall as quickly as some might expect. Lots of math, but the
conclusion is simple and clear.
I'm not sure I understand the discussion of loop leg lengths, obviously
they are constantly changing. The simplest way to look at loops is in
this
context.
Loop front speed will always be equal to the (speed of the top leg + the
speed of the bottom leg)/2. How far a cast will travel, and at what
speed
is determined by how much energy is put into the line, and how
efficiently
the loop is shaped. Just reconfirms what we've all known all along, a
tight
loop going fast goes farthest.
Bruce
(See attached file: Loopdrag.pdf)
Scientific Anglers/3M
4100 James Savage Rd.
Midland, MI 48642 USA
Tel: 989-496-1113
Fax: 989-496-3374
"Allen Crise"
<flysoup@xxxxxxxx
et>
To
"Rod Henderson"
02/27/2006 08:18 <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
AM "Jerry Puckett"
<jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>
"Ron Mc Quary"
<codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"Wes Hodgson"
<fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>
"Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>
"Travis Burt"
<tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"Sonny Hinojosa"
<csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>
"Dennis Burns"
<Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"Marshall Lasswell"
<mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"jeff jackson"
<tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>
"Rusty dunn"
<caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"Dale Connally"
<Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>
"gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
"keith Richard"
<KRichard@xxxxxxx>
"Steve Hollensed"
<stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>
"Ron Allen Thomas"
<koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
"Matt Wilhem"
<educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"LC Clower"
<lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>
"Ken Cole"
<ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"james Parker"
<james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>
"James Russell"
<jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>
"Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
"Gary Wood"
<brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>
"Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>
"dave Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>
"Clay Roberts"
<CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"cindy Alexander"
<calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>
"Stacy Trimble"
<stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
"Steve Barlow"
<steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
"john Deardorff"
<jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"david Bradley"
<dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>
"Troy Miller"
<Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>
"ol Al" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
"Don McCurry"
<donmcmurry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"Kevin Hensley"
<jargo432@xxxxxxxxx>
cc
"Bruce Richards"
<bwrichards@xxxxxxx>
Subject
FW: FW: loops Fall?
Howdy students and Gordy
When the study of the loop is done the only way the study can, at this
time, is in small section much like a tank track. Our engineers only
work
in straight vectors. So the tank track is one theory of what keeps the
loop
in the air. It is my belief that if the rod leg was not dragging the
bottom
of the loop it would not maintain is rotation and collapse. IF both of
the
legs were the same length you would not have the drag needed. In fact if
we
add a fly we get different loop curvatures. You case I will bet that the
rod leg was longer and had the drag of the belly of the line adding the
needed drag for turn over of the loop. Yes it reduced the drag and
increased the time until turn-over of the fly leg was completed.
Yes we are going to have to do some study on this or as you say
BRUCE?
Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
SOC VP of Education
Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
2508 A County Road 1011
Glen Rose, TX 76043
254-897-2045
geocities.com/rrdoctor
flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Hill [mailto:hillshead@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 7:03 AM
To: flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: FW: loops Fall?
ol Al...
Troy is correct, in my opinion.
The closest thing I've witnessed to the loop, "going on forever"
occurred
when one of our practical jokers cut the running line so that his
buddy's
distance cast would be a thing to behold. With so much resistance lost,
the loop went out to the horizon. There was still enough rod leg of the
loop left that the loop did turn over, but not until amazing distance
had
been reached and gravity took over.
I suspect that if one cut the fly line so that the fly leg and the rod
leg
of the loop were the same length and weight that the loop would not
unroll
at all before coming to Earth........but I havn't actually tried that.
We need to train one of our astronauts to make some casts in outer
space.
That would tell us what really happens there.
Gordy
From: "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Rod Henderson" <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Jerry Puckett"
<jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Mc Quary"
<codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Wes
Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>,"Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>,"Travis
Burt"
<tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Sonny Hinojosa" <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>,"Dennis
Burns"
<Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Marshall Lasswell"
<mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"jeff jackson" <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>,"Rusty
dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Dale
Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>,"gordon Hill"
<hillshead@xxxxxxx>,"keith Richard" <KRichard@xxxxxxx>,"Steve
Hollensed"
<stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Allen Thomas"
<koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Matt Wilhem" <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"LC
Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ken Cole"
<ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"james
Parker" <james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"James Russell"
<jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>,"Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Gary Wood"
<brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>,"Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>,"dave Speer"
<dave@xxxxxxxxx>,"Clay Roberts"
<CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"cindy
Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>,"Stacy Trimble"
<stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Steve Barlow"
<steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"john Deardorff"
<jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"david Bradley"
<dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>,"Troy Miller"
<Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>,"ol Al"
<flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Don McCurry" <donmcmurry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Kevin
Hensley" <jargo432@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: FW: loops Fall?
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 06:35:34 -0600
Howdy Gang and TROY
You are right But what you added I would call "out side forces". Air
density,will increase the drag, the Core of the line will make it
harder
for the loop to bend, The temperature of course in space would also
prevent the line from even forming a loop. The idea that the loop is
many
small section that have an action much like the tracks on a tank or
bulldozer that will "climb" on the air is also some of what happens to
the
loop. As many of you know the study of just what makes that loop stay
aloft is something that you could do for year. My statement is such
that I
left it open with just the adding of Outside forces. Gravity being the
biggie.
Thanks Troy. I should have made that more clear.
ol Al
Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
SOC VP of Education
Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
2508 A County Road 1011
Glen Rose, TX 76043
254-897-2045
geocities.com/rrdoctor
flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: Miller, Troy [mailto:Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 12:56 AM
To: Allen Crise
Subject: RE: loops Fall?
I don't agree that good loops will go on forever - unless you're in
outer
space. Here on earth, air resistance and gravity will both take their
toll on our loops. I agree that we have favorable lift dynamics
helping
reduce the effect of gravity to SOME extent, but they don't compensate
100% IMHO. The work done in bending and unbending our flyline also
gradually reduces the available energy as a loop unrolls. We don't
really
talk much about that, but I believe Bruce would concur, if we made our
flyline with a ridiculously stiff coating, it would not travel very far
at
all and the loop would stop turning over.
Then when we get into shooting line, that adds a guide friction term
into
the equation... It gets really complicated if you try to include all
of the
pertinent factors.
Regards -- TAM
-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Crise [mailto:flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 1:04 PM
To: Rod Henderson; Jerry Puckett; Ron Mc Quary; Wes Hodgson; Gary
Eaton;
Travis Burt; Sonny Hinojosa; Dennis Burns; Marshall Lasswell; jeff
jackson; Rusty dunn; John Till; Dale Connally; gordon Hill; keith
Richard;
Steve Hollensed; Ron Allen Thomas; Matt Wilhem; LC Clower; Ken Cole;
james
Parker; James Russell; Harry Boyd; Gary Wood; Don DeRidder; dave Speer;
Clay Roberts; cindy Alexander; Stacy Trimble; Steve Barlow; john
Deardorff; david Bradley; Miller, Troy; Harvey Harris; ol Al; Don
McCurry;
Kevin Hensley
Subject: loops Fall?
Howdy Long line casters
picked this off of Gordy's Mail
First paragraph is from Tom Cooper
After the **** is Bruce Richards.
NOTE: If we held 60' at the end of the last cast there would be 30' out
on
the rod leg to loop center, 30' out from the center of the loop back
the
fly leg to above the rod tip, and 30' from that point back to the fly
leaving 60' on the fly leg. (At a loop speed of 80 feet per second the
fly
would touch down in under .375 seconds).
*****We have proven mathematically what we visually see. Good loops
(tight, top pointed) defy gravity through some interesting wind
resistance
dynamics. Although a stationary loop dropped from normal height might
hit
the ground in .375 sec., a good loop will drop very little until it
straightens. Watch any good caster carrying 80 ft. of line. If gravity
was
the only force acting on the line the loop would hit the ground before
it
went very far.
So good loops will go on for ever unless acted on by out side forces or
the length of your line.....
ol Al
Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
SOC VP of Education
Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
2508 A County Road 1011
Glen Rose, TX 76043
254-897-2045
geocities.com/rrdoctor
flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx