Walter....
This is Key West Guide, Capt. Simon Becker's rig. The special little sinker is roughly 12" up from a fly on the tippet end....but this distance depends upon where the angler wants the fly to hover.
I think it is still depicted in the Orvis catalog....
We'll be interested in what you dig up on leaders.
Again, for salt water and big game fly leaders, I strongly recommend reading, FLYCASTING SYSTEMS by Bill Nash. You can order it by e-mail ( billsknots@xxxxxxx ) or from, BNCO Publisher, 1045 Woodbine Way, San Jose, CA 95117.
In line with Jerry's thinking about not using more fluorocarbon than needed, for much of my salt water leaders, I loop-to-loop a fluorocarbon tippet to the tapered leader section which is nylon mono as is the butt section. I wouldn't consider that at all for trout fishing. Frankly, it's very rare to actually lose an entire leader when fishing the salt......so it may not make much difference from an eco standpoint.
Gordy
From: WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: My error
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:57:12 -0700
Gordy - Is the permit rig you are talking about similar to a Carolina rig (where the fly is at the end of the leader and the sinker is higher up, i.e. closer to the rod, on the leader) or a dropshot rig (where the sinker is at the end of the leader and the fly is higher up)? Sounds like the Carolina rig from your description.
I don't know if permit are attracted to sound like bass are but, if so, the following web site might give you some ideas for options you could incorporate into the permit rig:
http://www.bassfishingusa.com/Rigging/rigging2.html
I'll see if I can dig up any of the info on leaders and forward it out.
Cheers
Walter
From: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
To: simbirsw@xxxxxxx, flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx, sobbobfish@xxxxxxx, rtab@xxxxxxx, CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx, creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, dan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, daver@xxxxxxxxxx, dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx, dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx, ephemera@xxxxxxx, brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx, barefootj@xxxxxxx, bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx, ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx, mkreider1@xxxxxxx, martyt@xxxxxxxxxx, niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx, pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, bigfly@xxxxxxxxx, whorwood@xxxxxxxxx, flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, sheila@xxxxxxxxxx, scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx, cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx
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Subject: Re: My error
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 06:44:41 -0500
Walter....
That would be my prefenence, too.....for most situations.
One technique recently touted for permit fishing is to use a tiny sliding sinker a pre-determined distance from the fly depending upon the depth of the water on the flat. The crab imitation is neither a true, "sinker" or a "floater".....just a little less dense than the water.
The idea is to present in such a way as to have the little sinker on the bottom to control the depth of the crab fly so it, "hovers" at a chosen level......such as at the tips of long grass.
John Til has messaged us that he's about to get back into tying his own leaders. Since he is a new member, he hasn't seen the voluminous material on leader materials and leader design that we went over last year. Would one of you be able to bring him up to date on these ?
If enough of you wish to do so, we can re-visit this subject in detail......
Gordy
From: WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: My error
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 08:32:07 -0700
Gordy - I've found the sinking leaders to be useful for fishing with streamers.
Depending on the action I want to get from the streamer and speed of the water
I'll use either an unweighted streamer with a sinking leader, a weighted streamer
with normal leader, or weighted streamer and sinking leader together. I don't like
to use split shot because it has a tendency to slide along the leader or fall off.
Cheers
Walter
From: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
To: simbirsw@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: My error
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 06:36:16 -0500
Walter....
I have fished the Bow in past years and done VERY well using only floating lines and standard leaders......however, I can see what you mean about those leaders, especially if you are fishing nymphs.
Gordy
From: WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: My error
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 10:16:59 -0700
Gordy - I've also found the Airflo sinking leaders to be extremely handy when
fishing the Bow River. Similar in concept to a multipurpose line but they are
low cost and can be added to any fly line within a couple of minutes. The Bow
is an ideal place for their use because the river is relatively shallow (typically
no more than 5 or 6 feet) and the current isn't extreme. They do change the
dynamic of the casting system (they result in a significant overlining of
the rod) but the convenience is great and the environment is ideal.
Cheers
Walter
From: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
To: bigfly@xxxxxxxxx, flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx, sobbobfish@xxxxxxx, rtab@xxxxxxx, CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx, creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, dan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, daver@xxxxxxxxxx, dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx, dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx, ephemera@xxxxxxx, brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx, barefootj@xxxxxxx, bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx, ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx, mkreider1@xxxxxxx, martyt@xxxxxxxxxx, niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx, pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, whorwood@xxxxxxxxx, flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, sheila@xxxxxxxxxx, scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx, cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx
CC: sportfisher@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx, caddis@xxxxxxx, Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx, cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx, crazycharlie@xxxxxxx, croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx, DermSox@xxxxxxx, gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxx, gavin@xxxxxxxxxxx, hillshead@xxxxxxx, iverson@xxxxxxxxx, jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx, jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx, captsilverking@xxxxxxx, till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, kathleen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx, plami@xxxxxxxxxxx, ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, kerrrc@xxxxxxxxx, simbirsw@xxxxxxx, bobbeanblossomFFF@xxxxxxxxxxx, hillcathy@xxxxxxx, dnewpher@xxxxxxxxxxxx, donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx, douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx, erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx, flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx, gregrahe@xxxxxxxxxxx, hlhpc@xxxxxxx, jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, jhara.carter@xxxxxxxxxxx, harveyjl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx, skifishvail@xxxxxxxx, jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx, trallag@xxxxxxx, captflyrod@xxxxxxx, mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, fraudflies@xxxxxxx, Ssadik1@xxxxxxx, shane@xxxxxxxxx, snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: My error
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 07:30:49 -0500
Randy....
To get deep running fish, here, (as well as in Northeastern waters such as New England and New York waters) I've found it much more effective to use full sink density compensated lines than sinking heads. I can get all the distance I need, and I have better control on the retrieve as well as avoiding the headaches of thin mono running line tangles.
The mono running lines become an occasional nightmare when fishing for explosive pelagics such as tuna......even a tiny tangle or knot can be a disaster.
Having said that, I did take a 12 lb. tippet world record Pacfic Bigeye Tuna using mono several years ago.....and Bob Andreae took a 15 lb. tippet record tuna on the same day with a similar head/mono line. We were doing some field testing with "Cortland Cobra" oval cross-section mono running lines in Costa Rica vs. "Amnesia" mono.
Most of our fishing here in the Keys is done with floating or intermediate lines....not heads. One reason is that we've learned to handle the heavy winds just fine, can get the distances we need, don't need the baskets, and I can control my presentation much better than I can with heads. Most of our successful fly fishermen and skiff guides agree with that.
For deep running King Salmon in Alaska, we found that the Jim Teeny sink tip T-300 and T-400 lines were a very good compromise.
Some steelhead rivers present a different problem......there, I still use heads of various densities and mono running line. Being able to change heads is a plus for that fishing.
Gordy
From: "Randy Olson" <bigfly@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: My error
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 23:38:46 -0500
Gordy,
Do you like to use floating or intermediate shooting heads in your flats fishing or do you find the thin line blowing around on your skiff not worth the headache? (I suppose those line tamers might do the job, but my even stripping baskets are too shallow when using 20 or 30lb mono. The wind picks up and still carries away a lot of line.)
Or do you use heavy, short sinking heads only around deeper wrecks and other deep water situations? "Jigging" with a fly rod is not the stuff of beauty but it does work. Do you do much of that kind of thing?
-Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Hill"
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Subject: My error
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:38:13 -0500
Hi, Group...
For years I've agreed with and taught a description for the term, "OVERHANG" as the length of running line between the rear end of the head and the rod tip.
..........so forgive me for making that error in my list of definitions/descriptions. Dig out your notes and make the change.
I might not have picked this up had Randy not called it to my attention.
As our FFF, Glossary committee continues its deliberations, I again remind you that these, "definitions" are not, "written in stone on the mount" and have been my working definitions. These will change as we work hard to refine them to come up with official ones which will be the product of careful thinking by 12 CBOG's and the acceptance of our report by the exec. committee. That will take time.......so be patient.
Gordy