[SPAM] Opinions on line hand v. rod hand speed

It depends on the purpose of the haul. If you are just trying to tighten you loops and have a more efficient cast. I tend to have a haul which begins sooner, near the beginning of the stroke, and ends with a little faster tug, more or less simultaneous with the power snap at the end of the casting stroke. If I am going for maximum distance, I would wait until much later in the casting stroke before beginning my haul. The haul would then be very fast so that as much of the haul as possible would be made during the power snap.

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ANSWER: The line hand is moving much faster than the rod hand. They move together at the same pace at the beginning of the pull. As the rod rotates to 90 degree position and begins to unload, the haul begins. I would like to think the line hand is moving as fast as the rod tip (as the rod unbends and the lever lengthens) for very long distance casts. If the line hand is not moving that fast, my goal is to do so. - Jim

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ANSWER:_I think it can vary... depending on what the caster wants to accomplish. But a couple things have to occur. Both haul and casting stroke should accelerate through the cast and the haul must end at the stop. You can cast slower and add a quick shorter haul or a fast stroke and a slower haul. In some instances I think it is a little like patting your head and rubbing your tummy but it can be done. I prefer to teach that the line hand haul mirrors the speed and acceleration of the rod hand casting stroke as I think this is a more natural motion. When fishing I usually add a faster haul to a slower stroke... seemingly saving my casting arm!!!

Gary

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Hi Gordy;

The speed of the line hand must match the rod hand.

Robert

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Gordy

In working on my own casting skills I have always tried to have the line and rod hand work at the same speed. I have also tried to vary the speed of the line hand so as not to match the speed of the rod hand. The cast certainly was not as effective and uncoordinated. I am not sure if the cast was not as effective because of the rod load or if the different speeds of the line and rod hand affected my coordination.

Dave Hutchinson

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Gordy and Group,

Short answer in two words or less - It Depends

Long answer more than 2 words-I would ask to clarify the question in that what are you trying to accomplish with the cast? Any speed in the haul hand will add benefit DIRECTLY to velocity of line-do you want loooong distance, do you want a lazy negative curve cast at 70 ', do you want a vertical tuck cast at 55'. You could have virtualIy no rod rotation which I use in demos that have a long fast haul and still make reasonably long distance casts (rod butt placed against belly button and torso rotates the whole rod). I would wait to clarify a more specific question because it is too subjective at the moment since all casts change with specific scenarios on the water.

I know for the challenge of hands casting a long distance stroke the other day on video the line hand travels 4' and really accelerates the last 2' (like conserving butt rotation with rod) --the hauling hand accelerates 4' roughly in the same amount of time it took the throwing hand to cover 2' in the end. So for this example the hauling hand was 2:1. This enabled a few casts in the mid 80's with no rod. I think it also applies to rod strokes as well.

I know some instructors advocate teaching a haul to be a little 2" pull on the line. It does offer a benefit, but it is not even close to the benefit of pulling a maximum amount of line at the right time (after rod perpendicular normally). If distance is the objective. I think efficiency is the real reason to use both-like a complimentary package for all casts.

Curious for the response you are tossing about. Another point would be the rod hand in a normal stroke is rotational and the hual would linear. This would be difficult to measure even with a bunch of high tech video footage I should think.

Mac

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Gordy and Group,

Short answer in two words or less - It Depends

Long answer more than 2 words-I would ask to clarify the question in that what are you trying to accomplish with the cast? Any speed in the haul hand will add benefit DIRECTLY to velocity of line-do you want loooong distance, do you want a lazy negative curve cast at 70 ', do you want a vertical tuck cast at 55'. You could have virtualIy no rod rotation which I use in demos that have a long fast haul and still make reasonably long distance casts (rod butt placed against belly button and torso rotates the whole rod). I would wait to clarify a more specific question because it is too subjective at the moment since all casts change with specific scenarios on the water.

I know for the challenge of hands casting a long distance stroke the other day on video the line hand travels 4' and really accelerates the last 2' (like conserving butt rotation with rod) --the hauling hand accelerates 4' roughly in the same amount of time it took the throwing hand to cover 2' in the end. So for this example the hauling hand was 2:1. This enabled a few casts in the mid 80's with no rod. I think it also applies to rod strokes as well.

I know some instructors advocate teaching a haul to be a little 2" pull on the line. It does offer a benefit, but it is not even close to the benefit of pulling a maximum amount of line at the right time (after rod perpendicular normally). If distance is the objective. I think efficiency is the real reason to use both-like a complimentary package for all casts.

Curious for the response you are tossing about. Another point would be the rod hand in a normal stroke is rotational and the hual would linear. This would be difficult to measure even with a bunch of high tech video footage I should think.

Mac

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Hi Gordy,

Here is the original message. It's an interesting subject, and one we plan

to study more....

Bruce

Hi Gordy/Rick,

Relating hand speeds doesn't really tell us much. Some casters cast with a

lot of translational movement (Lefty), others with very little (Steve

Rajeff). Both excellent casters, obviously, but with very different rod

hand motion and speed. Their hauls would be quite similar though. A more

meaningful comparison would be haul speed to rod tip speed. Comparing both

for Steve and Lefty would show very similar results. Our studies have shown

that a typical long cast haul might top out at 10-15 m/s, while rod tip

speed will be 60+ m/s.

Translational rod hand movement has pluses and minuses. It is more a style

issue than anything else.

Let me know if that doesn't help answer the question.

Bruce Richards

Scientific Anglers/3M

4100 James Savage Rd.

Midland, MI 48642 USA

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My thoughts:

I think Mac, Bruce and Gary came closest.....though a lot of truth in what each of you had to say. Our varied responses suggest that the answer is not quantifiable.

My Short answer: Haul hand often faster.

Long answer:-

With the long haul such a made by most long distance tournament casters, I've observed the haul hand to travel a greater distance than the rod hand in the same time period which means that the haul hand has to be moving faster. I simply can't tell when a really brief haul is made. With medium length hauls, the result, to me, is blurred.

Bruce correctly points out that the speed of the rod tip is far greater than that of the casting hand. He didn't relate it to the speed of the haul, but intuitively I feel that the tip speed must be greater than that of either hand. No hard data when the tip speed is compared with that of the haul hand, but this has been measured with respect to the movement of the rod hand. In the same time frame, the rod tip moves a far greater distance than the hand because it's way out on the end of a lever which is moving from one angular position to another. Even this changes with changes in the length of the rod.

Basically, I look at this ratio of rod hand speed to line hand speed during a haul as a VARIABLE. As such, I doubt the physicists could come up with a real mathematical model which would represent the speed of one over that of the other. So much depends upon the STYLE of casting and that of the use of the haul.

Gordy