Paul.....
I agree. Especially since inproper application of power can yield many problems, only one of which is lack of a good SLP.
I'll share you message.
Good luck with those NZ trout !
Have a great Chrismas down in the Antipedes.
Gordy
From: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Overlining/Underlining
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 14:34:21 -0000
Hi Gordy,
this is a really excellent answer.
I think most people's problems with overhang is not straight tracking, but rather an improper
power application - and in most cases applying power/butt rotation too early.
Both are effectively the same cause (same tip path/different planes).
The haul should be timed to coincide with butt rotation, of course, and
some people fuckup there.
Hope you are well and have a fantastic Xmas :-)
No tarpon down here in NZ but lots of great trout fishing this year!
Still haven't mastered your curve cast yet.
Cheers,
Paul
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
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Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: Overlining/Underlining
>Walter....
>
>VERY good question. Relax over a cup of coffee before you read this.
>
>Take note of the fact that champion distance casters all underline
>the rod for top performance.
>
>I've noted Steve Rajeff, for example, to use a 17 wt. rod with an 11
>wt line to make a record distance cast.
>
>When you cast your 5 wt. rod with a matching 5 wt. line, you are
>really handling a true 5 wt line as you false cast with 30' of line
>out of the rod tip.
>
>Add 5' - 6' of line, and you are already casting a 6 wt. line,
>BECAUSE EACH LINE IS RATED ACCORDING TO THE GRAIN WEIGHT OF THE
>FIRST 30 FEET.
>
>Now you want to go for distance....so you carry 60' of line before
>your presentation cast. Since each 5' to 6' off line carried adds
>one more weight designation, theoretically, you are now using a 5
>wt. rod to cast a 10 wt to 11 wt. line !!!
>
>I said, "theoretically", because while this is what is currently
>being taught in most fly casting courses, it isn't strictly the
>case. Reason is that once you let enough line out of the rod tip to
>get into the thinner and lighter running line behind the head, the
>increase in weight with each 5' - 6' is less, so the accretion is
>not geometric. This will, of course, vary with the length of the
>head. It's more true of a long belly line, like the XXD (50' +
>head) than it is with a TT line with a 30' head.
>
>With that XXD line which many of use for practice and teaching, with
>the scenario described above, you are probably casting a 9 - 10 wt.
>line with your 5 wt. rod loaded with a matching 5 wt. line and
>carrying 60'.
>
>When you have trouble carrying a lot of line as you underline your
>rod, you are telling me that you are actually having difficulty
>handline that extra overhang with this new and (to you) unaccustomed
>arrangement.
>
>You are absolutely correct about the need to carry more overhang.
>Let's talk about that.
>
>In teaching intermediate caster courses, many of us teach to carry
>as little overhang as possible to start, then add a bit more as
>casting expertise advances. That's to prevent frustrating bucking
>or, "hinging" which is really due to the caster not being able to
>handle much overhang for the reason that he/she can't maintain a
>straight line path of the rod tip and enough loop speed to do that.
>Tracking isn't good enough.
>
>As we get to teach advanced students, we work on having the student
>carry more and more line....advancing in small increments. Each
>increment representing a bit more overhang. We do this until we
>reach the maximum amount (wt.) of line which the student can carry
>and still maintain good tracking, a good SLP of the rod tip, and a
>well controlled distance cast.
>
>This is what Bill Gammel is doing in his video, "Teaching Yourself
>To Fly cast."
>
>Now we go to competition distance casters. These folks can carry
>tremendous lengths (wts.) of line and still maintain good tracking
>with surprisingly good SLP's. Why do they do this ?
>
>The answer lies in the observation that the more line they can carry
>(perforce the more overhang) the longer it takes for the
>presentation loop to unroll. Now, since the loop is only going
>forward while it is unrolling, the longer you can keep it unrolling,
>THE LONGER THE CAST.
>
>All that is behind Steve Rajeff's statement, quoted by Jason Borger,
>"Overhang is the tool for determining the rate of turnover of the
>head". (Jason Borger, NATURE OF FLY CASTING, p. 240.)
>
>
>Gordy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
> To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> Subject: Overlining/Underlining
> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:51:53 -0700
> Gordy - We have read that to increase casting distance one should
>underline, rather than overline, their rod. Have you had any chance
>to experiment with this? I just
> tried my 6 weight XP with a 5 weight line and found that, while
>you need to get more
> line in the air to load the rod properly, you also get more
>overhang (talking wf line)
> making loop control more difficult. I also found that I could cast
>roughly the same
> distance with both lines but that I wasn't able to shoot as much
>line with the
> 5 weight - even when I had good loop control.
>
> I've seen some people who can control an incredible amount of line
>in the air
> (Jeff's videos are a great example). Would someone with that
>ability (i.e. well
> in advance of my own) find the overhang a non issue?
>
> Do you know of anyone who regularly underlines their rods?
>
> Thanks
>
> Walter
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> To: flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx, sobbobfish@xxxxxxx, rtab@xxxxxxx,
>CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx, creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, dwright@xxxxxxxxxxxx,
>daver@xxxxxxxxxx, dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx,
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>fraudflies@xxxxxxx, shane@xxxxxxxxx, snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx
> Subject: Additions to list
> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:46:15 -0500
>
>
> Group:
>
> Re the list of things to bring to the exam, I have 2 additions.
>
> 1.) Unless you can tie a good nailess nail knot, it's a good idea
>to bring a knot tying tool, hollow tube, or nail in case you have to
>place a whole new leader on the fly line.
>
> 2.) Go back to # 8, a. What I meant was that the Sage TCR 7 wt.
>rod is 10' long, not 9'. The 6 wt. is 9' in length.
>
>
>Gordy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>