RE: Overlining/Underlining

If I may give a brief response to Gordys excellent comments.  I would also
advise that it is not always necessary to underline, depending on the 
rod, such
as a TCR or ECHO distance rod.  They are already quite stiff and cast very
comfortably long lengths of line without underlining.

The rod weight is designated by what the rod is designed to do with a specific
LINE WEIGHT and is therefore a very relative rating.  If a distance caster is
trying to cast great distances with a soft 5wt, say a Superfine (Orvis),
underlining will make it effectively stiffer because the weight of the line is
reduced, allowing for less load in the rod wtih a greater amount of 
line out of
the rod tip.

--
Jeff Wagner

Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
Redington Pro Staff
970-481-5887
jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.dhflyfishing.com


Quoting Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>:

>  Walter....  VERY good question. Relax over a cup of coffee before 
> you read this.  Take note of the fact that champion distance casters 
> all underline the rod for top performance.  I've noted Steve Rajeff, 
> for example, to use a 17 wt. rod with an 11 wt line to make a record 
> distance cast.  When you cast your 5 wt. rod with a matching 5 wt. 
> line, you are really handling a true 5 wt line as you false cast with 
> 30' of line out of the rod tip.  Add 5' - 6' of line, and you are 
> already casting a 6 wt. line, BECAUSE EACH LINE IS RATED ACCORDING TO 
> THE GRAIN WEIGHT OF THE FIRST 30 FEET.  Now you want to go for 
> distance....so you carry 60' of line before your presentation cast.  
> Since each 5' to 6' off line carried adds one more weight 
> designation,  theoretically, you are now using a 5 wt. rod to cast a 
> 10 wt to 11 wt. line !!!  I said, "theoretically", because while this 
> is what is currently being taught in most fly casting courses, it 
> isn't strictly the case.  Reason is that once you let enough line out 
> of the rod tip to get into the thinner and lighter running line 
> behind the head, the increase in weight with each 5' - 6' is less, so 
> the accretion is not geometric.   This will, of course, vary with the 
> length of the head.  It's more true of a long belly line, like the 
> XXD  (50'  + head) than it is with a TT line with a 30' head.  With 
> that XXD line which many of use for practice and teaching, with the 
> scenario described above, you are probably casting a 9 - 10 wt. line 
> with your 5 wt. rod loaded with a matching 5 wt. line and carrying 
> 60'.  When you have trouble carrying a lot of line as you underline 
> your rod, you are telling me that you are actually having difficulty 
> handline that extra overhang with this new and (to you) unaccustomed 
> arrangement.  You are absolutely correct about the need to carry more 
> overhang.  Let's talk about that.  In teaching intermediate caster 
> courses, many of us teach to carry as little overhang as possible to 
> start, then add a bit more as casting expertise advances.  That's to 
> prevent frustrating bucking or, "hinging" which is really due to the 
> caster not being able to handle much overhang for the reason that 
> he/she can't maintain a straight line path of the rod tip and enough 
> loop speed to do that.  Tracking isn't good enough.  As we get to 
> teach advanced students, we work on having the student carry more and 
> more line....advancing in small increments.  Each increment 
> representing a bit more overhang.  We do this until we reach the 
> maximum amount (wt.) of line which the student can carry and still 
> maintain good tracking, a good SLP of the rod tip, and a well 
> controlled distance cast.  This is what Bill Gammel is doing in his 
> video, "Teaching Yourself To Fly cast."  Now we go to competition 
> distance casters.  These folks can carry tremendous lengths (wts.) of 
> line and still maintain good tracking with surprisingly good SLP's.   
> Why do they do this ?  The answer lies in the observation that the 
> more line they can carry (perforce the more overhang) the longer it 
> takes for the presentation loop to unroll.  Now, since the loop is 
> only going forward while it is unrolling, the longer you can keep it 
> unrolling, THE LONGER THE CAST.  All that is behind Steve Rajeff's 
> statement, quoted by Jason Borger, "Overhang is the tool for 
> determining the rate of turnover of the head".  (Jason Borger, NATURE 
> OF FLY CASTING, p. 240.)                                              
>                        Gordy -------------------------
> From: /WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>/
> To: /Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>/
> Subject: /Overlining/Underlining/
> Date: /Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:51:53 -0700/
> Gordy - We have read that to increase casting distance one should 
> underline, rather than overline, their rod. Have you had any chance 
> to experiment with this? I just
> tried my 6 weight XP with a 5 weight line and found that, while you 
> need to get more
> line in the air to load the rod properly, you also get more overhang 
> (talking wf line)
> making loop control more difficult. I also found that I could cast 
> roughly the same
> distance with both lines but that I wasn't able to shoot as much line 
> with the
> 5 weight - even when I had good loop control.
>
> I've seen some people who can control an incredible amount of line in the air
> (Jeff's videos are a great example). Would someone with that ability 
> (i.e. well
> in advance of my own) find the overhang a non issue?
>
> Do you know of anyone who regularly underlines their rods?
>
> Thanks
>
> Walter
>
> -------------------------
> From: /Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>/
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> Subject: /Additions to list/
> Date: /Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:46:15 -0500/
>
>  Group:  Re the list of things to bring to the exam, I have 2 
> additions.  1.)  Unless you can tie a good nailess nail knot, it's a 
> good idea to bring a knot tying tool, hollow tube, or nail in case 
> you have to place a whole new leader on the fly line.  2.)  Go back 
> to # 8, a.   What I meant was that the Sage TCR 7 wt. rod is 10' 
> long, not 9'.   The 6 wt. is 9' in length.                            
>                                        Gordy