John...
YES....I went out and played with that concept. You are correct in that the timing of that release is best related to the amount of overhang.
I learned something. Thanks !
Gordy
From: "John Wilson" <flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: hillshead@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: FW: Testing
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:05:54 +0000
Gordy:
I completely agree with the "Mirror Image" concept. For me it is the most effective method of applying a haul.
On the release however I'd say it is directly related to the length of overhang being carried. If a caster is carrying 50 feet of overhang and releases at the moment of the stop the line will fail to complete it's turn over. If I am carrying a very long line I will often hold the release untill "well" after the stop.
John
>From: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>To: flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx, sobbobfish@xxxxxxx, rtab@xxxxxxx,
>CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx, creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, dwright@xxxxxxxxxxxx,
>daver@xxxxxxxxxx, dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx,
>captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>ephemera@xxxxxxx, brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx, keysjake@xxxxxxx,
>barefootj@xxxxxxx, bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx, mkreider1@xxxxxxx, martyt@xxxxxxxxxx,
>niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx, pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, bigfly@xxxxxxxxx,
>whorwood@xxxxxxxxx, flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, sheila@xxxxxxxxxx,
>scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx, cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx, tomwhite@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>CC: mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx, caddis@xxxxxxx, Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx, crazycharlie@xxxxxxx,
>croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx, DermSox@xxxxxxx,
>gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxx, gavin@xxxxxxxxxxx, hillshead@xxxxxxx,
>iverson@xxxxxxxxx, jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx, jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx,
>kathleen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>plami@xxxxxxxxxxx, ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, kerrrc@xxxxxxxxx,
>simbirsw@xxxxxxx, bobbeanblossomFFF@xxxxxxxxxxx, hillcathy@xxxxxxx,
>dnewpher@xxxxxxxxxxxx, donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx, erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx, hlhpc@xxxxxxx, jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>jhara.carter@xxxxxxxxxxx, harveyjl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx, skifishvail@xxxxxxxx, jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx,
>trallag@xxxxxxx, captflyrod@xxxxxxx,
>mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>fraudflies@xxxxxxx, shane@xxxxxxxxx, snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx
>Subject: FW: Testing
>Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:07:19 -0500
>
>
>Group...
>
>I'm passing this thought provoking "string of messages" to you.
>Scroll way down below this message and read them first.
>
>In the past, the way one hauled was considered, STYLE.
>
>Lefty used to teach that all you needed for a good cast was a short,
>quick strip at exactly the right time near the conclusion of the
>stroke. Others taught and used a longer haul for almost all casts
>where one was considered in the first place. LITTLE MEETING OF THE
>MINDS on that issue.
>
>Now most agree that for greatest casting efficiency that it behooves
>the caster to match the length of the haul with that of the
>cast......."short cast = short haul" (no haul needed for very short
>casts) / "Long cast = long haul." Even Lefty has modified his
>dictum in that direction.
>
> Look at the picture of Steve Rajeff at the very conclusion of his
>distance cast on Mel Krieger's video, THE ESSENCE OF FLY CASTING,
>II. You will see that his arms are the mirror image of one another
>as the line is released by his line hand.
>
>The reason Lefty took that position in the first place was that is
>was easiest to TEACH the most effective timing of the haul with that
>short quick pull, because it had to be done pretty close to the
>right place in the stroke or it just wouldn't work very well.....and
>students immediately got the idea. As such, it joins many of the
>things Lefty taught with which pundits disagreed ....because he
>wrote and made those statements, not with the pure physics of the
>cast in mind, but for statements which would get into the brain of
>his students, even though he know they weren't strictly correct from
>a scientific standpoint. That this method of his teaching was
>effective is obvious when one watches the casting of his long term
>students......like Ed Jaworowski, who throws the tightest loop I've
>ever seen.
>
>This has been refined to include the timing of acceleration of the
>haul to match that of the acceleration of the rod tip, and the
>timing of the line hand line release to be carefully timed close to
>that of the STOP of the hand.
>
>Some experts are still trying to come to an agreement as to whether
>it's best to have that release exactly at the STOP, or a fraction of
>a second on either side of it......Jury is still out on that one.
>(I don't think my timing is sharp enough that I can tell whether
>it's best for me to do one or the other, frankly.)
>
>
>Gordy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From: "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
>To: "ol Al" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>,"jerry Puckett" <jerry puckett
>[jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx]>,"Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>,"Troy
>Miller" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"david Bradley"
><dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>,"john Deardorff"
><jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Steve Barlow"
><steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Stacy Trimble"
><stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Raye Carrington"
><raye@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"cindy Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>,"Clay
>Roberts" <CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"dave Speer"
><dave@xxxxxxxxx>,"Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>,"Gary Wood"
><brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>,"Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"James
>Russell" <jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>,"james Parker"
><james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ken Cole"
><ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"LC Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Matt
>Wilhem" <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Allen Thomas"
><koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Steve Hollensed"
><stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Jerry Puckett"
><jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>,"keith Richard"
><KRichard@xxxxxxx>,"gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>,"Dale Connally"
><Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>,"John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Rusty
>dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"jeff jackson"
><tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>,"Marshall Lasswell"
><mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Dennis Burns"
><Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Sonny Hinojosa"
><csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>,"Travis Burt" <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Gary Eaton"
><geaton@xxxxxxx>
>Subject: FW: Testing
>Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:30:16 -0600
>
>
>
>
>Howdy Gang.
>Here is a question / answer that I think is worth you reading
>through.
>
>ol Al
>
>
>Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
>SOC VP of Education
>Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
>2508 A County Road 1011
>Glen Rose, TX 76043
>254-897-2045
>geocities.com/rrdoctor
>flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
>
>Here is the question that started this thread
>
>
> > When Tom Jindra tested me in Mountain Home, he was dissatisfied
>with my
> > step-by-step description of the double haul. He wanted to hear
>the term
> > "mirror image" and told me so. In a basic cast without hauling, a
>mirror
> > could be placed at the theoretical center of the casting arc and
>present
> > a use of "mirror image" terminology. A mirror could be placed
>between
> > the hands as the line haul is initiated and the hand separation
>be
> > described in "mirror image" terms. My experience is that my best
>hauls
> > are started after the beginning of the power stroke, so it would
>be a
> > very distorted mirror image. Please tell me how this applies.
>_____________________________________________________________
>
> > Ok Gary
>
> What if you are casting and the haul is started at the power snap
>of
> > the rod (hand).Then the haul would speed up at the same time?
>Still a
> > copy of the rod?
> >
> > I like to say the haul matches the rod tip. in speed and
>distance.
> > making the Stop with the haul the same time you rod tip tops or
>reaches
> > RSP (Rod Straight Position).
> >
> > You back cast haul and front cast haul should be applied at the
>same
> > time in the stroke; Right? The hand should feed back the line to
>the rod
> > on the end of back cast stroke. So if you are false casting you
>can do
> > the same with your haul GET THE HAND UP TO THE ROD.
> >
> >
> >
> > Now I will warn you often the masters will ask you a question
>that has a
> > vague answer you are to make a choice and defend it. No they do
>not tell
> > you which one it is. But will be like a student that you will get
>that
> > knows all the answers. YOU have had on of them I am sure.
> >
> > When doing the Demo and Explain BE THE INSTRUCTOR. Explain what
>you are
> > doing and BE DOING IT. If you are making a haul in the back cast
>be
> > making a back cast. If you are going to demo a big loop 'Color in
> > Crayons' BIG and BOLD. Make a loop like a newbies would make if
>they
> > want one smaller you can do that. One more tip If you quote a
>master or
> > guru, be sure that you are word for word not close. Remember the
>Masters
> > have heard it before they do not need to hear it wrong....
> >
> > CCI can be tough because you do not know what to expect. Now you
>have
> > gone through it once it will be much easier.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Ok Gary
>
> What if you are casting and the haul is started at the power snap
>of
> > the rod (hand).Then the haul would speed up at the same time?
>Still a
> > copy of the rod?
> >
> > I like to say the haul matches the rod tip. in speed and
>distance.
> > making the Stop with the haul the same time you rod tip tops or
>reaches
> > RSP (Rod Straight Position).
> >
> > You back cast haul and front cast haul should be applied at the
>same
> > time in the stroke; Right? The hand should feed back the line to
>the rod
> > on the end of back cast stroke. So if you are false casting you
>can do
> > the same with your haul GET THE HAND UP TO THE ROD.
> >
> >
> >
> > Now I will warn you often the masters will ask you a question
>that has a
> > vague answer you are to make a choice and defend it. No they do
>not tell
> > you which one it is. But will be like a student that you will get
>that
> > knows all the answers. YOU have had on of them I am sure.
> >
> > When doing the Demo and Explain BE THE INSTRUCTOR. Explain what
>you are
> > doing and BE DOING IT. If you are making a haul in the back cast
>be
> > making a back cast. If you are going to demo a big loop 'Color in
> > Crayons' BIG and BOLD. Make a loop like a newbies would make if
>they
> > want one smaller you can do that. One more tip If you quote a
>master or
> > guru, be sure that you are word for word not close. Remember the
>Masters
> > have heard it before they do not need to hear it wrong....
> >
> > CCI can be tough because you do not know what to expect. Now you
>have
> > gone through it once it will be much easier.
>
>
>.Gary
> > I will try to help you out on these:
> > Bruce came up with 6 steps to correction to a cast
> >
> > #1 what is the line doing
> >
> > #2 what did the rod do to make it happen
> >
> > #3 what did the body do to make it happen
> >
> > #4 correct the body
> >
> > #5 make the rod do what is right
> >
> > #6 Did the line do what is was suppose to?
> >
> > This is a rough idea. of the 6 steps three down three up.
> >
> > Mini quiz What if the line kicked to the left?
> >
>
>Allen,
>
>Thank you for your reply. Now that I see it, I am familiar with
>Bruce
>Richards process but I did not fully appreciate who it came from.
>
>I really like your "haul matches the rod tip" explanation. From the
>rest
>of your explanations it appears that the backcast haul, recovery,
>pause is
>a mirror image of the front cast, haul, recovery, pause. That makes
>visual
>and kinesiological sense to me. I now have a descriptive application
>of
>"mirror-image" for which I am grateful.
>
>As for the mini quiz - The line kicked left, the rod rotated left
>the hand
>rotated to the left during the power snap. Correct by isolating the
>wrist
>from rotation during the power snap, the rod should run in true SLP,
>and
>the loop should unroll straight, too.
>
>Time to take the rod to the lawn, again!
>
>Gary
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>IF you can follow all of that I tried to put it order. Might have
>lost something...
>
>
>
>ol AL
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
> > SOC VP of Education
> > Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
> > 2508 A County Road 1011
> > Glen Rose, TX 76043
> > 254-897-2045
> > geocities.com/rrdoctor
> > flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
>
>
>