Peter....
A good tip.
Gordy
From: Peter Minnick <pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Detergent for fly lines
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:47:55 -0500
Gordy.... One piece of equipment I never go fishing without is a small terrycloth towel. When the lines get sticky I soak it in the bottom of the cooler which holds the fresh water from the ice[or bottled water] and run the line through the towel.Cleans off whatever is impeding the lines and makes the shooting much better... Peter
Gordon Hill wrote:
Jerry....
I HAVE tried stripping the line into a bucket or one of those bucket-like free standing, "line tamers" with fresh water in them. Some folks tried ice to stiffen the lines, in past years.(doesn't last long in the tropics !)......but not detergent.
Most fly line manufacturers with their cleaning recommendations, tell us to use a mild soap....not detergent. I always assumed that was to avoid damaging the PVC coating, since detergents can leach out some of the plasticizers.
I think that Airflow lines have a different coating in lieu of PVC.......Polyurethane ?......I don't have experience with this material. Some of the new Airflow lines have longitudinal ridging to minimize area contact with the rod guides and tip top. Poorly lubricated lines got so much volcanic grit sticking to them that they sawed notches in our tip tops as we fished in volcanic runoff in the Galapagos Islands, and in soupy glacial rivers in Alaska. These had to be cleaned several times a day. Makes me wonder if these longitudinal ridges wouldn't add to that collection of grit problem.
Those longitudinal ridges have been used in recent years for our surgical tubings. Prior to that, soft plastic unridged tubings would be a problem as they stuck together on my operative field.........just as some fly line coils seem to, "stick together" on the hot deck of a flats skiff......especially when dirty. Perhaps that will be less of a problem with ridged fly lines......but I haven't tried them . The newer ridged tubings don't, "stick".
Not having tried the detergent, perhaps I shouldn't presume to criticize Capt. Barkus' method.......but despite his claim, I'm reluctant to try that.
Of course, new lines made for salt water need no, "stiffening" as they usually are made with a braided monofilament core rather than a braided multifilament one, and are stiff enough as made.........so no more thoughts of ice.
For softening the plastic coating on the fly lines we used to use years ago in Alaska, we used a plasticizer called, ARMORAL. (I think that is the spelling). It was used to clean and soften vinyl covered furniture and vinyl seats in cars. We found that this can be overdone. I ruined a couple of fly lines by thinking that, "if a little is good, a lot must be better." I placed these lines in a plastic bag of the stuff and let them marinate. The mess is hard to describe.....made them unusable and irretrievable.
Let's ask Bruce Richards who knows more about fly lines than anyone I know.
Gordy
From: jerry puckett <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: FW: Testing
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:10:25 -0800 (PST)
Gordy and Walter, I fish with Capt Bert Barkus out of Chokeeleskee Fla. He has a plastic tray of water with cleaning detergent in it for stripping in the line. One can cast all day without worry about everglades waters making the line stickey. He has used one line for five years. The only drawback is one needs to have some protection on the line hand lest fingers become cut through repeated stripping in! Just wondering what your thoughts on this were since you saltwater fish. Jerry
Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx> wrote:Walter....Yes... these are individual solutions to special problems. Here's another:In your first case, where the back cast didn't result in pulling enough line back into the rod after your haul, your haul hand remains way down or away from the stripper guide. There is usually at least a tiny bit of hand haul motion still possible.One solution is to use the brief, crisp haul at exactly the point of maximum rod load on the delivery cast from that, "hand-way-down-there" position.It brings up the concept that in real fishing, as in love and war, "ALL IS FAIR !"DESPERATE FISHING REQUIRES DESPERATE MEASURES .Gordy &a mp;nbs p;
From: WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: FW: Testing
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:26:11 -0700
Gordy - Things to consider on long vs short hauls.
Tournament casters will always make sure they have clean, lubricated lines and rod
guides when casting. This should be the case when fishing but it isn't always true -
maybe the water is extra dirty, you've stepped on your line, you forgot to
bring line cleaner - whatever.
Tournament casters also have the luxury of an unobstructed back cast which may not
be the case when fishing.
Now - you are on the water and you see that big fish cruising past and you don't
have time to clean your line, or find a better position to cast from - you have to
cast right now or he's gone. You don't have time for a couple of false casts you
have to make one back cast and then get the fly in front of the fish.
You make your back cast with a long haul but now the "sticky" line doesn't shoot
so well into the back cast. You are standing there with your back cast complete
and your hands are 6 feet apart. You are going to do one of two things. Bring your
hands back together and introduce a pile of slack between the line hand and stripping
guide and completely destroy your forward cast or you do the forward cast without
hauling and hope for the best. If, on the other hand, you had made a short haul of
less than a foot on the back cast you can still do a reasonable haul on your forward
cast. Knowing that the line is sticky you can put some extra "oomph" into the cast
and haul and stand a good chance of getting the fly in front of the fish.
Tournament casters are also going for a "hail Mary" cast. Fishermen may be trying
to get a few extra feet out of a cast or just trying for a relaxed efficient casting
style that lets them fish/cast all day without tiring or suffering from stiff muscles
the next day. A short haul is better choice in this case.
Cheers
Walter
From: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
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Subject: FW: Testing
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:07:19 -0500
Group...I'm passing this thought provoking "string of messages" to you. Scroll way down below this message and read them first.In the past, the way one hauled was considered, STYLE.Lefty used to teach that all you needed for a good cast was a short, quick strip at exactly the right time near the conclusion of the stroke. Others taught and used a longer haul for almost all casts where one was considered in the first place. LITTLE MEETING OF THE MINDS on that issue.Now most agree that for greatest casting efficiency that it behooves the caster to match the length of the haul with that of the cast......."short cast = short haul" (no haul needed for very short casts) / "Long cast = long haul." Even Lefty has modified his dictum in that direction.Look at the picture of Steve Rajeff at the very conclusion of his distance cast on Mel Krieger's video, THE ESSENCE OF FLY CASTING, II. You will see that his arms are the mirror image of one another as the line is released by his line hand.The reason Lefty took that position in the first place was that is was easiest to TEACH the most effective timing of the haul with that short quick pull, because it had to be done pretty close to the right place in the stroke or it just wouldn't work very well.....and students immediately got the idea. As such, it joins many of the things Lefty taught with which pundits disagreed ....because he wrote and made those statements, not with the pure physics of the cast in mind, but for statements which would get into the brain of his students, even though he know they weren't strictly correct from a scientific standpoint. That this method of his teaching was effective is obvious when one watches the casting of his long term students......like Ed Jaworowski, who throws the tightest loop I've ever seen.This has been refined to include the timing of acceleration of the haul to match that of the acceleration of the rod tip, and the timing of the line hand line release to be carefully timed close to that of the STOP of the hand.Some experts are still trying to come to an agreement as to whether it's best to have that release exactly at the STOP, or a fraction of a second on either side of it......Jury is still out on that one. (I don't think my timing is sharp enough that I can tell whether it's best for me to do one or the other, frankly.)Gordy
From: "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: "ol Al" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>,"jerry Puckett" <jerry puckett [jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx]>,"Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>,"Troy Miller" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"david Bradley" <dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>,"john Deardorff" <jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Steve Barlow" <steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Stacy Trimble" <stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Raye Carrington" <raye@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"cindy Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>,"Clay Roberts" <CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"dave Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>,"Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>,"Gary Wood" <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>,"Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"James Russell" <jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>,"james Parker" <james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ken Cole" <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"LC Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Matt Wilhem" <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Allen Thomas" <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Steve Hollensed" <stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Jerry Puckett" <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>,"keith Richard" <KRichard@xxxxxxx>,"gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>,"Dale Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>,"John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Rusty dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"jeff jackson" <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>,"Marshall Lasswell" <mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Dennis Burns" <Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Sonny Hinojosa" <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>,"Travis Burt" <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>
Subject: FW: Testing
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:30:16 -0600
Howdy Gang.
Here is a question / answer that I think is worth you reading through.
ol Al
Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
SOC VP of Education
Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
2508 A County Road 1011
Glen Rose, TX 76043
254-897-2045
geocities.com/rrdoctor
flysoup@xxxxxxxxxxHere is the question that started this thread
> When Tom Jindra tested me in Mountain Home, he was dissatisfied with my
> step-by-step description of the double haul. He wanted to hear the term
> "mirror image" and told me so. In a basic cast without hauling, a mirror
> could be placed at the theoretical center of the casting arc and present
> a use of "mirror image" terminology. A mirror could be placed between
> the hands as the line haul is initiated and the hand separation be
> described in "mirror image" terms. My experience is that my best hauls
> are started after the beginning of the power stroke, so it would be a
> very distorted mirror image. Please tell me how this applies.
_____________________________________________________________> Ok GaryWhat if you are casting and the haul is started at the power snap of
> the rod (hand).Then the haul would speed up at the same time? Still a
> copy of the rod?
>
> I like to say the haul matches the rod tip. in speed and distance.
> making the Stop with the haul the same time you rod tip tops or reaches
> RSP (Rod Straight Position).
>
> You back cast haul and front cast haul should be applied at the same
> time in the stroke; Right? The hand should feed back the line to the rod
> on the end of back cast stroke. So if you are false casting you can do
> the same with your haul GET THE HAND UP TO THE ROD.
>
>
>
> Now I will warn you often the masters will ask you a question that has a
> vague answer you are to make a choice and defend it. No they do not tell
> you which one it is. But will be like a student that you will get that
> knows all the answers. YOU have had on of them I am sure.
>
> When doing the Demo and Explain BE THE INSTRUCTOR. Explain what you are
> doing and BE DOING IT. If you are making a haul in the back cast be
> making a back cast. If you are going to demo a big loop 'Color in
> Crayons' BIG and BOLD. Make a loop like a newbies would make if they
> want one smaller you can do that. One more tip If you quote a master or
> guru, be sure that you are word for word not close. Remember the Masters
> have heard it before they do not need to hear it wrong....
>
> CCI can be tough because you do not know what to expect. Now you have
> gone through it once it will be much easier.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ok GaryWhat if you are casting and the haul is started at the power snap of
> the rod (hand).Then the haul would speed up at the same time? Still a
> copy of the rod?
>
> I like to say the haul matches the rod tip. in speed and distance.
> making the Stop with the haul the same time you rod tip tops or reaches
> RSP (Rod Straight Position).
>
> You back cast haul and front cast haul should be applied at the same
> time in the stroke; Right? The hand should feed back the line to the rod
> on the end of back cast stroke. So if you are false casting you can do
> the same with your haul GET THE HAND UP TO THE ROD.
>
>
>
> Now I will warn you often the masters will ask you a question that has a
> vague answer you are to make a choice and defend it. No they do not tell
> you which one it is. But will be like a student that you will get that
> knows all the answers. YOU have had on of them I am sure.
>
> When doing the Demo and Explain BE THE INSTRUCTOR. Explain what you are
> doing and BE DOING IT. If you are making a haul in the back cast be
> making a back cast. If you are going to demo a big loop 'Color in
> Crayons' BIG and BOLD. Make a loop like a newbies would make if they
> want one smaller you can do that. One more tip If you quote a master or
> guru, be sure that you are word for word not close. Remember the Masters
> have heard it before they do not need to hear it wrong....
>
> CCI can be tough because you do not know what to expect. Now you have
> gone through it once it will be much easier.
.Gary
> I will try to help you out on these:
> Bruce came up with 6 steps to correction to a cast
>
> #1 what is the line doing
>
> #2 what did the rod do to make it happen
>
> #3 what did the body do to make it happen
>
> #4 correct the body
>
> #5 make the rod do what is right
>
> #6 Did the line do what is was suppose to?
>
> This is a rough idea. of the 6 steps three down three up.
>
> Mini quiz What if the line kicked to the left?
>
Allen,
Thank you for your reply. Now that I see it, I am familiar with Bruce
Richards process but I did not fully appreciate who it came from.
I really like your "haul matches the rod tip" explanation. From the rest
of your explanations it appears that the backcast haul, recovery, pause is
a mirror image of the front cast, haul, recovery, pause. That makes visual
and kinesiological sense to me. I now have a descriptive application of
"mirror-image" for which I am grateful.
As for the mini quiz - The line kicked left, the rod rotated left the hand
rotated to the left during the power snap. Correct by isolating the wrist
from rotation during the power snap, the rod should run in true SLP, and
the loop should unroll straight, too.
Time to take the rod to the lawn, again!
Gary
---------------------------------------------------------------------------IF you can follow all of that I tried to put it order. Might have lost something...ol AL
> Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
> SOC VP of Education
> Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
> 2508 A County Road 1011
> Glen Rose, TX 76043
> 254-897-2045
> geocities.com/rrdoctor
> flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx