FW: Re: STOP?

 

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From: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>,"Jeff Wagner" <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: STOP?
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:27:08 -0000

Hi Jeff,
my thoughts on this is that in a 170 degree "stopless" arc the rod will
straighten as theangle between the flyline and the rod butt becomes acute.
The loop is still top pointed so I assume this to be true. The energy
stored in the bend rod has to go somewhere, either through the tip
or through the butt. If you're rotating the rod through 170 while it's
unbending the energy is going to go through the tip without the need
for an abrupt stop. At least this is what I *think* is happening.
What we really need is a high speed camera. I hope to have access to one
before I leave NZ.

Incidentally I know of a Spanish distance caster who uses the swoop to
cast into the mid 120s.

Cheers,
Paul



>Jeff....
>
>You bring up some interesting points.
>
>I'll pass this on to the Group with the suggestion that it may help
>to print this out and study it at leisure. There is a lot of
>thought going into this message.
>
>
>Gordy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: Jeff Wagner <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> Subject: STOP?
> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:49:34 -0700
> Gordy,
>
> This thread is very interesting. Hope you dont mind if I put in a
>word.
>
> I agree with Paul on a a few issues and you on others.
>
> When casting, any speed that is directly applied to the rod is
>also applied to
> the fly line. In which case the line will continue forward whether
>the rod
> stops or slows or just gets out of the way. We can see this when
>we do a
> thrust cast as paul notes. However is this the most efficient
>cast? I will
> suggest no, and state that it is possible to perform this cast
>with an
> unflexible lever by simply slinging the line. Any more distance is
>achieved by
> the energy imparted to the fly line by the flexing (unflexing) of
>a fly rod.
>
> However, energy from the cast by a fly rod is imparted at some
>point in the
> cast. Where? It can only be during a deceleration after a maximum
>velocity is
> achieved. In other words for the distance caster after the loading
>move the
> speed up and the wrist flip we achieve maximum velocity. At this
>point we
> could maintain this velocity however we usually run out of arm. In
>which case
> we decelerate and the rod unflexs and imparts energy into the fly
>line. Again
> evidence for this can be seen in casting a unflexible lever versus
>casting a
> fly rod. We cast farther with a fly rod.
>
> The rate of deceleration I think is the key. As can be seen in
>Bruce's fly
> casting analyzer. The faster the deceleration the more quickly the
>energy is
> transfered to the rod and the more efficient the energy transfer
>is as the
> energy is not wasted over a long period of time. This quick
>deceleration is
> the difference between great casters like Rajeff and a beginner
>cast.
>
> As you and Jeff noted it is possible to make to abrupt of a stop
>without taking
> proper measures and shock the rod. However if you watch Rajeff and
>others like
> him they do take measures after a VERY abrupt stop often tilting
>the tip of the
> rod down and lifting the butt of the rod up (usually with very
>stiff rods that
> rebound very quickly) to move the tip of the rod out of the way of
>the oncoming
> fly line. An action needed because of the abrupt stop teamed with
>a very narrow
> casting arc.
>
> I have attemped to demonstrate this when casting. I will first
>carry a good
> amount of line and on the final forward stroke continue forward
>and lay the rod
> down without really stopping the rod, simply continuing the motion
>only changing
> direction toward the ground with the rod while the fly line
>continues to unroll.
> Second, I cast normal and stop the rod abruptly causing
>counterflex in the rod.
> The normal casts with a stop and subsuquently a counterflex always
>go farther. The cast which has no defined stop as in a thrust cast
>still has a deceleration
> and energy transfered to the fly line this is unavoidable as the
>rod
> straightens. However, a very long deceleration or lack of a stop
>as we are
> calling it here would transfer less energy.
>
> i would also note that at the veolcity reached by many great
>distance casters it
> may be very difficult to bring the rod to a full instantaneous
>stop. Instead
> the rod would continue forward and actually soften the stop
>slightly.
>
> Still a defined quick deceleration of the rod after maximum
>velocity of the tip
> will offer the best transfer of energy, the best case scenario for
>distance
> casting.
>
> --
> Jeff Wagner
>
> Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
> Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
> Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
> Redington Pro Staff
> 970-481-5887
> jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> www.dhflyfishing.com
>
>
> Quoting Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>:
>
> >
> >
> > Paul... We are getting a little complicated for many in our
> >Group, here. My brief comments in your text in BOLD CAPS. > Gordy
> >
> >-------------------------
> >
> > From: /"Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>/
> >Reply-To: /"Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>/
> >To: /"Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>/
> >Subject: /Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS/
> >Date: /Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:32:15 -0000/
> >Hi Gordy,
> >
> >The reason I'd like to see casting arc included in (3) is because
>it >deals with progressive
> >rod bending and is quite specific. It's possible to make a long
>cast >a short stroke length,
> >underhand casting styles for example. Bruce Richards reckons drag
> >[translational rod movement
> >pre-butt rotation] removes slack, Bill Gammel thinks it removes
>sag, >I think it adds Kinetic
> >Energy. It probably does all three. But I don't think increasing
> >stroke length is an essential
> >whereas widening the casting arc most certainly is. I AGREE THAT,
> >\"STROKE LENGTH\" DOESN'T COVER IT ALL. AS I LOOK AT IT , TIP
> >TRAVEL IS MOST IMPORTANT......A COMBINATION OF STROKE LENGTH, ROD
> >(CASTING) ARC, AND ANY OTHER TRANSLATIONAL MOVEMENTS IN THE
> >DIRECTION OF THE CAST. (WE MUST REMEMBER THAT BACK WHEN THESE WERE
> >WRITTEN, MANY WERE USING THE TERM, \"STROKE LENGTH\" TO MEAN WHAT
>WE >NOW CALL, \"TIP TRAVEL\".) PRE-BUTT ROTATION, \"PULL\", \"DRAG\"
>OR >ANY TRANSLATIONAL MOTION IN THE DIRECTION OF THE CAST PROBABLY
> >_DOES_ REMOVE SLACK AND SAG AND ADDS KINETIC ENERGY.......ALL
>THREE >(AS I SEE IT.)
> >
> >(6) is very interesting. Something I teach, is to say "stop
>harder". >What is someone
> >doing when they think "stop harder"? Hopefully they're squeezing
>the >hand, which
> >results in rotating the butt at the end of the stroke, which is
> >"proper power application". I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT. FLOYD FRANKE
> >PUTS IT THIS WAY WHEN HE TEACHES THIS : \"SQUEEZE TO A STOP\".
> >HELPS A LOT WITH ACCURACY CASTING, TOO.
> >
> >I'd like to say I knew the answer here, but I don't. The argument
> >for an abrupt
> >stop is that it gives a more efficient transfer of energy from
>rod >to line, but on a
> >170 casting arc I reckon that most of that energy has already
>been >transferred
> >before the stop. Where's the stop on a swoop or a thrust, for
> >example?
> >If it's at the end of thrust the rod's hit RSP, energy's been
> >transferred and you may as
> >well drop the rod. YES. THIS IS GROUND UPON WHICH FEW DARE TO
>TROD >!.......WE RISK BEING CALLED HERETICS. ON THE SO-CALLED,
>\"THRUST >CAST\" AS WELL AS THE, \"SWOOP\" IT DOES APPEAR THAT
>YOU'VE ALREADY >GONE PAST RSP. HERE, THE TRUE STOP IS WHEN, \"YOU
>RUN OUT OF ARM\". >OF COURSE THE ROD IS STRAIGHT AT THE END OF THE
>THRUST.....BUT THAT >MAY HAVE OCCURRED A SPLIT SECOND EARLIER. I'VE
>SEEN LEFTY DEMO THIS >AND LITERALLY DROP THE ROD ON THE GROUND AFTER
>THE THRUST. THE LOOP >SHOOTS OUT WITH TREMENDOUS SPEED AND ITS
>DIRECTION IS UNCHANGED. >BEST NOT TO TEACH THAT THRUST WIND CAST
>EXCEPT TO ADVANCED CASTERS >WHO HAVE ENOUGH CONTROL TO AVOID ELBOW
>INJURY.
> >
> >Sorry I know this is not very good teaching for a study group.
>Some >day we'll
> >know everything and then we'll try our best to forget it all.
> >
> >Incidentally I find emphasising "power application" as opposed to
> >"stop" can have
> >a more positive effect. Just a different way of getting the same
> >stroke nailed. I HOPE WE NEVER DO KNOW EVERYTHING ! IT WOULD BE
> >LIKE FINDING THE, \"NEVER-FAIL\" FLY. I DO SO LOVE GETTING INTO
> >SUPER DETAIL....BUT I DON'T WANT OUR GROUP TO LOSE SIGHT OF THE
> >FOREST FOR SAKE OF TOO MANY TREES. > GORDY
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Paul
> >
> >PS I can't believe Tip Travel has already been invented; we'll
>have >to come
> >up with something different.
> >
> >PPS I shouldn't have eaten beans last night.
> >
> >Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 7:13 PM
> >Subject: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS
> >
> >>Paul....
> >>
> >>Interesting points.
> >>
> >>On 3.)....."Short cast: short stroke, Long cast: long stroke"
>is, >>as we both know, a gross oversimplification. For the long
>cast, we >>need a long distance travel for the rod tip. We don't
>need it for >>the short cast. Of course, this is tip travel is
>produced by the >>combination of many things, including rod arc
>(casting arc), stroke >>length (as defined by the distance moved by
>the hand) and, with >>very long casts, the caster's body motion.
>Even a step forward >>during the delivery stroke adds to that tip
>travel.
> >>
> >>(Incidentally, the first reference in the casting literature I
> >>could find was in J.C. Mottram's book, FLY CASTING, originally
> >>published in 1921. So the term is a resurrection not a new
> >>coining.)
> >>
> >>On 6.) One can have a whimpy stop (a mush) and still get the fly
> >>out there on target......but is that the most efficient way to do
> >>it ?......I think not.
> >>
> >>I simply can't make anywhere near the distance on my distance
>cast >>with a soft stop. Just can't do it !
> >>
> >>You call attention to the concept of crisp application of power.
> >>Now if we have that anywhere in the stroke except in
>juxtaposition >>to the stop, we have a spike of power.......high
>liklihood of a >>tailing loop.
> >>
> >>Having said that, I realize fully that there are many casts
>which >>are done well with hardly a stop, or even no real stop.
>These >>include certain curve casts such as the corkscrew cast, the
> >>helicopter cast, and other decelerating curve casts....in fact,
>any >>purposely decelerated cast. It certainly includes the, "no
>stop" of >>the back cast during what has been called the, "European
>continuous >>tension cast" as well as other elliptical casts
>including the >>so-called, "Belgian cast".
> >>
> >>As I happen to look at it, a crisp stop is an essential for
> >>so-labelled, "straight line overhead casting"......NOT ALL
>CASTING, >>BY ANY MEANS. If we look at it that way, you are
>absolutely >>CORRECT.
> >>
> >>
> >>Gordy
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>From: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>Reply-To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> >>Subject: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS
> >>Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 05:19:38 -0000
> >>Hi Gordy,
> >>I've been thinking about the essentials listed below and I don't
> >>agree that [6] is an essential.
> >>I think what's really happening when a caster is thinking about
> >>making an abrupt stop
> >>is that he's really making a crisp power application [5]. There
>are >>quite a few "stopless" casting styles
> >>including the TLT and Austrian style - which as you know is how
> >>most Continental Europeans cast.
> >>I know that runs contrary to much of what we teach but many
> >>distance casters don't use an
> >>abrupt stop either but integrate drift/swoop into their stroke.
>I >>just sort of flop the rod over
> >>and hope.
> >>I used to think that the stop was the most important thing in
> >>flycasting, I now think it restricts
> >>distance.
> >>
> >>I think [3] should be or include proper casting arc.
> >>
> >>I hope you're getting some good fishing.
> >>Cheers,
> >>Paul
> >>
> >>
> >> > Group...
> >> >
> >> > Following a suggestion by Molly Semenik, I have one more >>
> >question on the 5 (or 6) ESSENTIALS.
> >> >
> >> > In your own words, describe what you would do to demonstrate
> >> >clearly to a group of fly casting students, each essential.
>You >>may >use a fly outfit or any other teaching prop or tool.
> >> >
> >> > 1.) Straight Line Path of Rod Tip - I have a short (one foot)
> >> >section of a rod tip complete with tip top guide. It enables
>me >>to >hold the short section up to eye level and while moving it
>back >>and >forth as per casting strokes, I can use the other hand
>to >>clearly >demonstrate the straight line path by accompanying
>the rod >>tip with >the flat palm of my other hand.
> >> >
> >> > 2.) Eliminate Slack - When teaching, I always stress this
>very >> >early in the lesson. I have always liked and used Lefty's
>way of >> >putting this. With the line laying out about 30' with a
>bit of >> >slack, he points to the fly and leader and states: "Ain't
>nothing >> >gonna happen until that fly starts to move." After
>stating that >> >fact, I demonstrate how much of the back stroke is
>wasted pulling >> >out slack that was not removed. I also, to
>indicate the >>uselessness >of slack in casting and to interject a
>little levity >>as a bit of an >ice breaker, use the analogy of a
>drunk pulling a >>chain down the >street, when asked by a very
>proper lady, why he is >>pulling a chain, >he replies, "Lady, did
>you ever try pushing one >>of these things?"
> >> >
> >> > 3.) Short Line - Short Stroke, Long Line - Long Stroke - I
>use >> >analogies here also. To indicate proper stroke length, I
> >>pantomine >throwing a line-drive baseball, which requires a
>short >>straight line >throw/stroke for a close throw and a longer
>straight >>stroke for a >longer ball. I also have the student watch
>the rod as >>I make longer >strokes while adding line.
> >> >
> >> > 4.) Pause - I like to use the term -Timely Pause - With >>
> >beginners I try to have them temporarily adapt to a 90% stance
> >>and >watch their back cast straighten (almost straighten). This
>has >>a >dual-fold purpose, as it allows them to see the line
>trajectory >>and >often helps to keep their back casts up where
>they belong. If >>the >individual has trouble watching their back
>cast, I revert >>again to >one of Lefty's old methods. I ask them
>where they are >>from, and I >instruct them to make a back cast
>while pausing long >>enough to state >their name and where they are
>from. It works like >>a charm on a 30' >cast.
> >> >
> >> > 5.) Proper Application of Power. - When explaining power and
> >> >how to apply it, I have started to use a term that I believe
>our >>own >Gordy has coined, and that is "An accelerated
>acceleration to >>a >stop", I have never heard it explained better.
>For this all >> >important step I also use hands on guidance with
>permission. >>There >are many analogies for this also, such as
>driving in low >>gear then >shifting to second and finally high.
> >> > 6.) Abrupt Stop - When trying to explain the importance of
>the >> >stop, I allude to the elite distance caster's (Steve
>Rajeff) >>words, >when he was asked: What do the best casters do
>that other's >>fail to >do? And he replied; "They stop the rod." As
>to >>demonstrating this, I >again like to, with permission of
>course, >>use hands on. It is a >wonderful way to have the student
>actually >>feel the abruptness of >the required stop. Here again
>there are >>many visual aids we can >apply, throwing water at a wall
>off of a >>paint brush, slinging an >apple from a dowel rod and so
>on.
> >> > Since I have a plethora of beginners here in the Catskills, I
> >> >have printed out little cards (laminated) with the essentials
> >>listed >and hand them out at the end of a one day lesson. I tell
> >>them to put >them in their wallet or purse and refer to them if
> >>necessary when >they are practicing, and then I always add; "You
>do >>plan to >practice, don't you?"
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>