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FW: Re: STOP?
- Subject: FW: Re: STOP?
- Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:02:19 -0500
From: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Jeff Wagner" <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
CC: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: STOP?
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 05:21:43 -0000
Hiya Jeff,
No I was reading this bit:
"And I can make a crisp stop without any rotation at all, I can make
>>wtih simply
>>linear movement"
That's a tail.
Hard to imagine SLP on a 170 arc but I agree it's in there somewhere. So much for matching casting arc to rod bend.
It must just happen, which is handy. Sort of means you don't
have to worry about it and can just flop over as far and as fast as possible. There goes another two essentials by the way...
Cheers,
Paul
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
<jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:07 AM
Subject: Re: STOP?
>You misread the e-mail Paul. I stated that if you continued to
>rotate through
>you would have a wide loop, which means you are creating a domed
>path to the
>rod, not a dipped down path.
>
>I agree about the 170 degree arc, but the reason is you have a
>straight line
>path to the rod tip, or roughly so. I have an almost 170 degree arc
>as do
>several other casters I have watched video. I think you will notice
>a great
>deal of them have an initial slight lift after the drift which
>brings the tip
>to a level that as the forward motiona and rotation occur allow for
>a stright
>line path. Then a slight elevated forward trajectory
to accomodate
>for line
>drop as the line unrolls. Of course all rod paths are not exactly
>straight at
>the end of the stroke (as shown my Al Kyte), they are slightly domed
>at the
>end.
>
>--
>Jeff Wagner
>
>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>Redington Pro Staff
>970-481-5887
>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>www.dhflyfishing.com
>
>
>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>
>>I don't understand Jeff, if you don't rotate the loop tails.
>>But yes, you certainly can do this. You're right, it wouldn't be
>>very competitive.
>>
>>Wrong link - I do that sometimes:
>>http://www.sexyloops.com/movies/shuffle.shtml You don't get a wide
>>loop with a Hartman 170 or 180 arc, which is of course
>>quite interesting and means there's a shortfall in our
>>understanding which we hope to fix soon.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Paul
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 3:33 PM
>>Subject: Re: STOP?
>>
>>
>>>The link didnt take me to any video.
>>>
>>>And I can make a crisp stop without any rotation at all, I can
>>>make wtih simply
>>>linear movement. Obviously that isnt the best case
scenario for
>>>distance.
>>>
>>>Rotation certainly adds A LOT OF SPEED. And a crisp stop helps.
>>>I dont think
>>>that is debatable. I can have great rotation without ever
>>>exatually stopping
>>>the rod but continuing through with the rotation in which case I
>>>would end up
>>>with a wide loop. I think there is more to it, as I have outline.
>>> But not
>>>sure we are getting any further.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>
>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>Redington Pro
Staff
>>>970-481-5887
>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>
>>>
>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>
>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>Sure I stop the rod, but by the time I've stopped the energy
>>>>has been transferred. Dunno which video you're looking at but the
>>>>most recent is
>>>>http://www.sexyloops.com/movies/shufflecast/shuffle.mpg
>>>>Interesting contrast to
>>>>http://www.sexyloops.com/movies/distancecast/distancecast2.mpg
>>>>
>>>>"The problem with your description is that is
>>>>>not always true. In a very short cast the angle could be a 90."
>>>>In which case it's not a stopless
cast.
>>>>
>>>>I'm not arguing that a crisp stop isn't a good thing; I think it
>>>>often is but
>>>>not because of "efficient energy transfer", but rather because
>>>>the crisp
>>>>stop is preceded by sharp butt rotation and that's the key. The
>>>>stop is
>>>>a stop, for many years I fell into the trap of mixing butt stop
>>>>with butt rotation.
>>>>I think that's what you are doing now.
>>>>
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>Paul
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill"
<hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 4:55 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: STOP?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Paul,
>>>>>
>>>>>I think we are on the same track no matter how much of what I
>>>>>say you agree,
>>>>>because about half of what you are saying doesnt make any sense
>>>>>to me.
>>>>>
>>>>>Power application is just that, the application of power.
>>>>>Energy transfer is
>>>>>just that the transfer of energy. I can hold a rod in mind hand
>>>>>that is loaded
>>>>>full of energy because I applied a force to the rod to make it
>>>>>move and then
>>>>>applied a force
(energy) to make it stop. It is at this point
>>>>>where the rod
>>>>>butt has stopped that the rod tip can unflex and the energy can
>>>>>transfer into
>>>>>the rod. The application part has stopped (in a physical sense
>>>>>of me applying
>>>>>force tot he rod) and now the energy stored in the bent rod is
>>>>>being release..
>>>>>
>>>>>The way I see it in my minds eye the angle is acute with the
>>>>>butt of the rod
>>>>>and the fly line. The tip of the rod could be pointed forward,
>>>>>the butt toward
>>>>>the caster and the fly line would be attached to the tip and
>>>>>pointing in the
>>>>>same direction as
the butt toward the caster. In this
>>>>>description Yes the more
>>>>>straight the rod becomes the more energy has been transfered. I
>>>>>agree with
>>>>>that. I said that in several previous e-mails by stating that
>>>>>as the rod
>>>>>unflexes the energy is released. The problem with your
>>>>>description is that is
>>>>>not always true. In a very short cast the angle could be a 90.
>>>>>
>>>>>Of course rod rotation and rod unbending give more energy and
>>>>>speed to the cast,
>>>>>that is not debatable. An angular rotation at any velocity is a
>>>>>continuous
>>>>>acceleration which gives a great load to the rod but also
>>>>>increases line speed
>>>>>dircetly.
>>>>>
>>>>>Of the video of you distace casting that I have seen on the
>>>>>website and last
>>>>>year at the conclave. I thought I saw a stop. It may not be
>>>>>the classic stop
>>>>>that youa re thinking of but there is definitley a quick
>>>>>deceleration.
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>
>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
>>>>>Fishers
>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>Redington Pro
Staff
>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>
>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
>>>>>Fishers
>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>Redington Pro Staff
>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>I
disagree with about half of what you've written below.
>>>>>>Power application is the transfer of energy from hand to
>>>>>>rod butt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The only thing I can add to anything I've written earlier is
>>>>>>this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As the angle the butt makes to the line becomes acute,
>>>>>>ie approaches zero, the load on the tip diminishes,
>>>>>>the rod straightens and transfers energy to the line.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I believe this results in a higher tip speed and not lower
>>>>>>since tip speed has now become a combination of
>>>>>>rod rotation and rod unbending and not rod unbending
alone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For what it's worth I use a stopless cast for distance.for
>>>>>>seven weights and below. I don't have the strength to
>>>>>>do it with heavier lines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:47 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: STOP?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I think we are
saying the exact same thing. Power application
>>>>>>>is energy
>>>>>>>transfer. If the power application is over a longer period of
>>>>>>>time then it is
>>>>>>>a longer energy dissipation. Power application and energy go
>>>>>>>hand in hand. The pooint of a power application is to transfer
>>>>>>>energy from our body to the
>>>>>>>rod and to the fly line. If we are talking specifically about
>>>>>>>rod unload the
>>>>>>>energy is being transfered to the fly line from the rod. If
>>>>>>>we are talking
>>>>>>>about a classic power application meaning the speed up to a
>>>>>>>stop we
are
>>>>>>>applying energy. But in a lazy stop the dissipation is
>>>>>>>occuring over a longer
>>>>>>>period of time. To this I mean that there is only so much
>>>>>>>energy that will be
>>>>>>>transfered to the fly line as the rod unflexes. If this
>>>>>>>happens quick a great
>>>>>>>deal of energy will be transfered to the line in an effective
>>>>>>>instant when the
>>>>>>>line is begining to move beyond the rod. If I were to
>>>>>>>exagerate this movement
>>>>>>>by decelerating slowly the fly line could continue to move
>>>>>>>forward while I move
>>>>>>>the rod down or
to the side slightly, with a short cast the
>>>>>>>line could
>>>>>>>completely unroll before I have stopped the rod fully. If the
>>>>>>>line unrolls
>>>>>>>fully and then I fully stop by a continual deceleration no
>>>>>>>effective energy
>>>>>>>would be transfered. In which my timing sucks. If I would
>>>>>>>have stopped the
>>>>>>>rod more abruptly then the energy would have been used more
>>>>>>>effectively.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am not sure how you can say power application is the
>>>>>>>problem. In the classic
>>>>>>>sense of the word the power application is getting the
rod to
>>>>>>>bend. If we are
>>>>>>>taling about a deceleration (lazy stop) then the power
>>>>>>>application is already
>>>>>>>over. However, since power application is such a broad term
>>>>>>>it could be used
>>>>>>>to describe the power applied to create the stop. As could
>>>>>>>energy, we could
>>>>>>>say energy has to be applied to the rod to make it stop.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am not sure where we are going with this?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
>>>>>>>Fishers
>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>Redington Pro Staff
>>>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>>>I disagree that the "problem" with a lazy stop is energy
>>>>>>>>transfer.
>>>>>>>>It may be power application, it may be tip path, but it is
>>>>>>>>not
>>>>>>>>energy transfer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"A very rapid
>>>>>>>>>deceleration more effectively transfers the energy into the
>>>>>>>>>fly line, because
>>>>>>>>>it is a over a short period of time."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The transfer of energy is not time dependent.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>>>>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>To: "Paul Arden"
<paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:44 PM
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: STOP?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Paul,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The enregy that is transfered anytime very rarely stays in
>>>>>>>>>one from. While a
>>>>>>>>>great deal of energy would be a movement a kinetic energy as
>>>>>>>>>most know it. It
>>>>>>>>>will still produce some heat and some sound (possibly)
>>>>>>>>>although they may
be
>>>>>>>>>very minimal the transfer is not 100% motion. Friction
>>>>>>>>>between the fibers,
>>>>>>>>>much like friction between uscle fibers, will create some
>>>>>>>>>heat. You asked what
>>>>>>>>>type of energy I guess I misread the problem.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>What I was trying to convey is that wether a very long
>>>>>>>>>deceleration or a very
>>>>>>>>>short deceleration (stop as we think of it), energy is still
>>>>>>>>>transfered from
>>>>>>>>>the flexed rod to the fly line as the rod unflexes
>>>>>>>>>propelling the
line forward.
>>>>>>>>>The difference between these decelerations is how much of
>>>>>>>>>the energy would be
>>>>>>>>>usable to efficiently propelling the fly line forward. A
>>>>>>>>>very rapid
>>>>>>>>>deceleration more effectively transfers the energy into the
>>>>>>>>>fly line, because
>>>>>>>>>it is a over a short period of time. This concept is
>>>>>>>>>similar to the timig of
>>>>>>>>>the release of the haul. I will not describe as I think we
>>>>>>>>>could get off on
>>>>>>>>>another tangent as that is another greatly debated topic.
>>>>>>>>>But it is more
>>>>>>>>>effective releasing at one time during the stroke. The same
>>>>>>>>>could be said for
>>>>>>>>>the stop and the transfer of energy from the rod to the fly
>>>>>>>>>line. A slow
>>>>>>>>>deceleration releases the energy over a longer period of
>>>>>>>>>time with less energy
>>>>>>>>>being trasnfered at any one instant, thus transfering less
>>>>>>>>>energy into the fly
>>>>>>>>>line at any one instance.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>>Jeff
Wagner
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
>>>>>>>>>Fishers
>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>Redington Pro Staff
>>>>>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Hi
Jeff,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>"The energy would be in the form of heat, movemenet, sound
>>>>>>>>>>(very
>>>>>>>>>>>little)."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Are you saying the rod gets hotter with a lazy stop?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Movement I can understand, the energy is dissipated from
>>>>>>>>>>rod to line
>>>>>>>>>>or better stated, transferred.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>That's how I understand it
anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>>>>>>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:48 AM
>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re:
STOP?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Paul,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Eergy dissipated on a lazy stop is simply dissipated over
>>>>>>>>>>>a longer period of
>>>>>>>>>>>time and less of the energy would be transfered and used
>>>>>>>>>>>in prepolling the
>>>>>>>>>>>line. The energy would be in the form of heat, movemenet,
>>>>>>>>>>>sound (very little).
>>>>>>>>>>>But to me its not what it is transferred as but when, it
>>>>>>>>>>>is the timing. If
I
>>>>>>>>>>>cast 40 feet of line and make two consecutive casts 1 with
>>>>>>>>>>>a solid stop and the
>>>>>>>>>>>other with a longer stop a wider loop would form and less
>>>>>>>>>>>line speed would be
>>>>>>>>>>>achieved. I think this can be shown definitely through
>>>>>>>>>>>casting, but also
>>>>>>>>>>>through the casting analyzer which measures those
>>>>>>>>>>>variables. Of course it is
>>>>>>>>>>>possible to cast 40 feet with with no actual stop and a
>>>>>>>>>>>very long
decelerationa
>>>>>>>>>>>dn get good results because it is very easy to achieve
>>>>>>>>>>>that much power on such a
>>>>>>>>>>>short line, but that is not the point of the exercise.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On your second poit that a decleration occurs before a
>>>>>>>>>>>stop. Of course that is
>>>>>>>>>>>true. I dont think that is a revelation! You have to
>>>>>>>>>>>decelerate to stop. A
>>>>>>>>>>>car doesnt just cese to move some energy must be put into
>>>>>>>>>>>making it slow
down
>>>>>>>>>>>to a stop. The same is true of the casting arm and fly
>>>>>>>>>>>rod.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>When I mentioned maximum tip velocity below it was a
>>>>>>>>>>>maximum tip velocity before
>>>>>>>>>>>any sort of deceleration had occured to make the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>unflex. Which has to
>>>>>>>>>>>happen. There is no cast where a cast is made with no
>>>>>>>>>>>help from the fly rod by
>>>>>>>>>>>going from a flexed state to an unflexed state. The
>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration may be
very
>>>>>>>>>>>slow and add very little but it still happens.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>In the swoop it may all be one fluid motion and it may not
>>>>>>>>>>>have a solid stop. But, in order for a RSP to occur a
>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration of the hand must occur which
>>>>>>>>>>>allows the rod tip a nd fly line to begint overcome the
>>>>>>>>>>>lower section of the
>>>>>>>>>>>rod and the hand. The hand may not be stopped, or the
>>>>>>>>>>>butt for that matter,
>>>>>>>>>>>but a deceleration has
occured.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>When you say butt, do you mean the very bottom of the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>below the hand. I
>>>>>>>>>>>know this sounds stupid. But if that is the case then I
>>>>>>>>>>>would say that the
>>>>>>>>>>>stop is almost imperceptable and we are seeing a follow
>>>>>>>>>>>through. Similar to a
>>>>>>>>>>>motion in a drift. I think this happens almost every
>>>>>>>>>>>great casters cast. However, a massive deceleration has
>>>>>>>>>>>occured to allow the ro to get to RSP
then
>>>>>>>>>>>a follow through.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
>>>>>>>>>>>Fishers
>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>>>Redington Pro
Staff
>>>>>>>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>>>>>>>There are a couple of things I don't agree with below:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>" quicker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration means a greater amount of energy would be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>transferred
more quickly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>into the flyline and less of it would be dissipated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>after its effectiveness in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the cast."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>How do you see energy being dissipated on a "lazy stop"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>And in what form?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>"But the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop IS the point of energy transfer from rod to line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>and does impart more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy into the cast than would be lost from
counterflex
>>>>>>>>>>>>>or other ineffective
>>>>>>>>>>>>>motions associated with the stop when done properly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>"
>>>>>>>>>>>>When the rod is unbending it is transferring energy from
>>>>>>>>>>>>rod to line, this begins
>>>>>>>>>>>>when the rod butt is being decelerated/angle of line to
>>>>>>>>>>>>rod becomes acute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>This *always* occurs prior to butt stop.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>"The deceleration would be after
a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>maximum tip velocity and the inability of the caster to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>maintain an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>acceleration, an action caused by the caster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>intentionally slowing the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>(stopping) or unintentionally from running out of arm"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Maximum tip velocity occurs at Rod Straight Position
>>>>>>>>>>>>which normally
>>>>>>>>>>>>occurs after the stop, but in some cases can occur during
>>>>>>>>>>>>the
stroke
>>>>>>>>>>>>(making the stop a non-essential)..
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>The swoop stroke I am thinking of, pulls down with no
>>>>>>>>>>>>butt rotation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>rotates the butt around a fixed point and then drives
>>>>>>>>>>>>upward,
>>>>>>>>>>>>pointing the rod in the direction of the cast.
>>>>>>>>>>>>It's all one fluid motion. RSP occurs before butt stop.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I know the recognised theory, Jeff, but I don't think
>>>>>>>>>>>>it's complete.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>>>>>>>>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:49 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re:
STOP?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>A minor point. You can have a stopless cast. But every
>>>>>>>>>>>>>cast has a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration. even if that deceleration is over a long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>period of time or large
>>>>>>>>>>>>>distance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>IF I understand your description properly there is still
>>>>>>>>>>>>>a deceleration in
the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>rod at the end of the stroke or in this case when 170
>>>>>>>>>>>>>degrees is attained. Any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration from a maximum tip velocity will cause the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>tip to straighten. And
>>>>>>>>>>>>>consequently energy to transfer from the rod to the fly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>line. Since it is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>tip that is unbending and has the motion most of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy would be expelled
>>>>>>>>>>>>>through the tip. The amount of energy that would go
>>>>>>>>>>>>>into the cast would depend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>on several variables including the time of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration, a quicker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration means a greater amount of energy would be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>transfered more quickly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>into the flyline and less of it would be dissipated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>after its effectiveness in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the cast. Timing!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>If your debate is when is the rod straightening it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>during/after a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration, not necessarily a stop. The deceleration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>would be after a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>maximum tip velocity and the inability of the caster to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>maintain an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>acceleration, an action caused by the caster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>intentionally slowing the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>(stopping) or unintentionally from running out of arm.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Both have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration. I would call attention to Steve
Rajeff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>and other tournament
>>>>>>>>>>>>>style casters where the the stop is the defining mark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>between a good caster and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>great caster. Again, timing of the release would have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>something to do with this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>but also energy transfer. A longer stop has more time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>to transfer energy and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>losing its effective timing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>If you are contending that the majority of the
energy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>has been transfered before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the stop. I would say that definitely some of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy has been imparted to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the rod as the line is pulled through the air, if this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>were not the case the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>line would not be moving. Once the line is in motion it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>will continue at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>speed of the tip, decreasing after energy is no longer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>being imparted to
the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>line in which case it is effected by gravity, air
>>>>>>>>>>>>>resistance, etc. But the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop IS the point of energy transfer from rod to line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>and does impart more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy into the cast than would be lost from counterflex
>>>>>>>>>>>>>or other ineffective
>>>>>>>>>>>>>motions associated with the stop when done properly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>As for the swoop. I dont doubt that it can be a very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>effective technique. However, that doesnt mean anything
>>>>>>>>>>>>>about the rod not stopping or decelerating. If we are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>using the same term for swoop, meaning a dipped down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>path to the hand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the middle of the stroke to ensure a straight path to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the tip of the rod. A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>maximum deceleration would occur at the end of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>stroke and energy transfered
>>>>>>>>>>>>>to the fly line. I dont think that this is the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>effective technique as it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>means less bend in the rod is happening than for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>caster that is moving the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>hand in a arcing motion or even a straight line (if both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>casters are using the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>same rod and similar stroke length). But, if it works
>>>>>>>>>>>>>for the guy who cares.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>As I said in an earlier e-mail style is very individual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>and there is more than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>one to
get the job done. I have been told recently that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>my style is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>appropriate either but I get decent results. Just not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>in pesky comps!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think I understand your discussion. The way I would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>break it down would be in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>two parts. The old lever and spring concept (lever and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>flexiable lever).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>1. Lever (non-flexiable as an example) energy is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>imparted directly to the line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>as the line is pulled through the air. The line will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>continue regarless of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop. The line will keep moving only slowing as the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>line is acted on by air
>>>>>>>>>>>>>resistance, friction, etc. This could happen regarless
>>>>>>>>>>>>>of the means of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>line being pulled, this is true since a flexed rod as it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>moves through the air
>>>>>>>>>>>>>is being
flexed and is for this purpose not moving. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>same could be true for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>a broomstick or even hand casting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>2. Spring. The point where the flexiable lever, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>rod, is unflexing and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>transfering the energy to fly line, propelling it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>forward. The rod must flex
>>>>>>>>>>>>>and unflex to do this. I think this can be shown to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>very effective by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>having a flexed
lever and unflexable lever cast next to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>each other. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>efficiency of the flexiable lever imparting energy to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the fly line depends on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>many factors is effecient enough to have a net increase
>>>>>>>>>>>>>in energy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Let me know if I am missing your point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff
Wagner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Redington Pro
Staff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>>>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>my thoughts on this is that in a 170 degree "stopless"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>arc the rod will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>straighten as theangle
between the flyline and the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>butt becomes acute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The loop is still top pointed so I assume this to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>true. The energy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stored in the bend rod has to go somewhere, either
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>through the tip
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>or through the butt. If you're rotating the rod through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>170 while it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unbending the energy is going to go through the tip
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>without the
need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for an abrupt stop. At least this is what I *think* is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>happening.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>What we really need is a high speed camera. I hope to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>have access to one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>before I leave NZ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Incidentally I know of a Spanish distance caster who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>uses the swoop to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cast into the mid
120s.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You bring up some interesting points.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'll pass this on to the Group with the suggestion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that it may help to print this out and study
it at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>leisure. There is a lot of thought going into this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>message.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gordy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
;>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Jeff Wagner <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: STOP?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:49:34 -0700
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gordy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This thread is very interesting. Hope you dont mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>if I put in a
word.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with Paul on a a few issues and you on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>others.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When casting, any speed that is directly applied to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the rod is also applied to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the fly line. In which case the line will continue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>forward whether the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stops or slows or just gets out of the way. We can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>see this when we do a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thrust cast as paul notes. However is this the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>efficient cast? I will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggest no, and state that it is possible to perform
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this cast with an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unflexible lever by simply slinging the line. Any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>more distance is achieved by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the energy imparted to the fly line by the flexing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(unflexing) of a fly
rod.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, energy from the cast by a fly rod is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>imparted at some point in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cast. Where? It can only be during a deceleration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>after a maximum velocity is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> achieved. In other words for the distance caster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>after the loading move the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speed up and the wrist flip we achieve maximum
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>velocity. At this point
we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could maintain this velocity however we usually run
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>out of arm. In which case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we decelerate and the rod unflexs and imparts energy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>into the fly line. Again
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence for this can be seen in casting a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unflexible lever versus casting a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fly rod. We cast farther with a fly rod.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The rate of deceleration I think is the key. As
can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>be seen in Bruce's fly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> casting analyzer. The faster the deceleration the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>more quickly the energy is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transfered to the rod and the more efficient the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy transfer is as the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> energy is not wasted over a long period of time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This quick deceleration is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the difference between great casters like Rajeff and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a beginner
cast.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As you and Jeff noted it is possible to make to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>abrupt of a stop without taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proper measures and shock the rod. However if you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>watch Rajeff and others like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> him they do take measures after a VERY abrupt stop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>often tilting the tip of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rod down and lifting the butt of the rod up (usually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>with very stiff rods
that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebound very quickly) to move the tip of the rod out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of the way of the oncoming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fly line. An action needed because of the abrupt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop teamed with a very narrow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> casting arc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have attemped to demonstrate this when casting. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>will first carry a good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of line and on the final forward stroke
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>continue forward and lay the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down without really stopping the rod, simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>continuing the motion only changing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> direction toward the ground with the rod while the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fly line continues to unroll.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, I cast normal and stop the rod abruptly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>causing counterflex in the rod.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The normal casts with a stop and subsuquently a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>counterflex always go farther. The cast which has no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>defined stop as in a thrust cast still has a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and energy transfered to the fly line this is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unavoidable as the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> straightens. However, a very long deceleration or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>lack of a stop as we are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calling it here would transfer less
energy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i would also note that at the veolcity reached by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>many great distance casters it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may be very difficult to bring the rod to a full
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>instantaneous stop. Instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the rod would continue forward and actually soften
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the stop slightly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still a defined quick deceleration of the rod after
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>maximum velocity of the tip
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will offer the best transfer of energy, the best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>case scenario for distance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> casting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of Fly Fishers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Redington Pro Staff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 970-481-5887
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quoting Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Paul... We are getting a little complicated for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>many in our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Group, here. My brief comments in your text in BOLD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CAPS. > >Gordy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >-------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > From: /"Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Reply-To:
/"Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >To: /"Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Subject: /Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Date: /Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:32:15 -0000/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Hi Gordy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >The reason I'd like to see casting arc included in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(3) is because it >deals with progressive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >rod bending and is quite specific. It's possible to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>make a long cast >a short stroke length,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >underhand casting styles for example. Bruce
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Richards reckons drag
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >[translational rod movement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >pre-butt rotation] removes slack, Bill Gammel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thinks it removes sag, >I think it adds Kinetic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Energy. It probably does all three. But I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>think increasing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>stroke length is an essential
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >whereas widening the casting arc most certainly is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I AGREE THAT,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >\"STROKE LENGTH\" DOESN'T COVER IT ALL. AS I LOOK AT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>IT , TIP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TRAVEL IS >MOST IMPORTANT......A COMBINATION OF STROKE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LENGTH, ROD (CASTING) ARC, >AND ANY OTHER
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TRANSLATIONAL MOVEMENTS IN THE DIRECTION OF THE CAST.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(WE >MUST REMEMBER THAT BACK WHEN THESE WERE WRITTEN,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MANY WERE USING THE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >TERM, \"STROKE LENGTH\" TO MEAN WHAT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>WE >NOW CALL, \"TIP TRAVEL\".) PRE-BUTT ROTATION,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>\"PULL\", \"DRAG\" OR >ANY TRANSLATIONAL MOTION IN
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>THE DIRECTION OF THE CAST PROBABLY
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >_DOES_ REMOVE SLACK AND SAG AND ADDS KINETIC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ENERGY.......ALL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>THREE (AS >I SEE IT.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >(6) is very interesting. Something I teach, is to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>say "stop harder". >What is someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >doing when they think "stop harder"? Hopefully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>they're squeezing the >hand, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >results in rotating the butt at the end of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stroke, which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >"proper power application". I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FLOYD
FRANKE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PUTS IT >THIS WAY WHEN HE TEACHES THIS : \"SQUEEZE TO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A STOP\". HELPS A LOT WITH >ACCURACY CASTING, TOO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >I'd like to say I knew the answer here, but I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>don't. The argument
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >for an abrupt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >stop is that it gives a more efficient transfer of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy from rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >to line, but on
a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >170 casting arc I reckon that most of that energy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>has already been >transferred
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >before the stop. Where's the stop on a swoop or a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thrust, for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >example?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >If it's at the end of thrust the rod's hit RSP,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy's been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >transferred and you may as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >well drop the rod. YES. THIS IS GROUND UPON WHICH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FEW DARE TO TROD >!.......WE RISK BEING CALLED
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>HERETICS. ON THE SO-CALLED, \"THRUST
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >CAST\" AS WELL AS THE, \"SWOOP\" IT DOES APPEAR THAT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>YOU'VE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ALREADY >GONE PAST RSP. HERE, THE TRUE STOP IS WHEN,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>\"YOU RUN OUT OF ARM\". OF >COURSE THE ROD IS STRAIGHT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>AT THE END OF THE THRUST.....BUT THAT MAY >HAVE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>OCCURRED A SPLIT SECOND EARLIER. I'VE SEEN LEFTY DEMO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>THIS AND >LITERALLY DROP THE ROD ON THE GROUND AFTER
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>THE THRUST. THE LOOP SHOOTS >OUT WITH TREMENDOUS SPEED
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>AND ITS DIRECTION IS UNCHANGED. BEST NOT TO >TEACH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>THAT THRUST WIND CAST EXCEPT TO ADVANCED CASTERS WHO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>HAVE ENOUGH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >CONTROL TO AVOID ELBOW INJURY.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Sorry I know this is not very good teaching for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>study group. Some >day we'll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >know everything and then we'll try our best to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>forget it all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Incidentally I find emphasising "power application"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as opposed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >"stop" can have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >a more positive effect. Just a different way of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>getting the
same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >stroke nailed. I HOPE WE NEVER DO KNOW EVERYTHING !
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>IT WOULD BE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LIKE >FINDING THE, \"NEVER-FAIL\" FLY. I DO SO LOVE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>GETTING INTO SUPER >DETAIL....BUT I DON'T WANT OUR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>GROUP TO LOSE SIGHT OF THE FOREST FOR >SAKE OF TOO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MANY TREES. > GORDY
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >PS I can't believe Tip Travel has already been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>invented; we'll have >to come
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >up with something different.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >PPS I shouldn't have eaten beans last night.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 7:13 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Subject: Re: Actual demo of
ESSENTIALS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Paul....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Interesting points.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>On 3.)....."Short cast: short stroke, Long cast:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>long stroke" is,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>as we both know, a gross oversimplification. For
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the long >>cast,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>we >>need a long
distance travel for the rod tip. We
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>don't need it for the >>short cast. Of course, this is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>tip travel is produced by the >>combination of many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>things, including rod arc (casting arc),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stroke >>length (as defined by the distance moved by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the hand) and, with >>very long casts, the caster's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>body motion. Even a step forward >>during the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>delivery stroke adds to that tip
travel.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>(Incidentally, the first reference in the casting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>literature I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>could find was in J.C. Mottram's book, FLY CASTING,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>originally >>published in 1921. So the term is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>resurrection not a new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>coining.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>On 6.) One can have a whimpy stop (a mush) and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>still get the fly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>out there on target......but is that the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>efficient way to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>do it >>?......I think not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I simply can't make anywhere near the distance on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>my distance cast >>with a soft stop. Just can't do it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>You call attention to the concept of crisp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>application of power.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Now if we have that anywhere in the stroke except
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>juxtaposition to >>the stop, we have a spike of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>power.......high liklihood of a tailing >>loop.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Having said that, I realize fully that there are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>many casts which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>are done well with hardly a stop, or even no real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop. These
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>include >>certain curve casts such as the corkscrew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cast, the helicopter cast, >>and other decelerating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>curve casts....in fact,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>any >>purposely decelerated cast. It certainly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>includes the, "no stop" of >>the back cast during what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>has been called the, "European continuous >>tension
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cast" as
well as other elliptical casts including the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>so-called, "Belgian cast".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>As I happen to look at it, a crisp stop is an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>essential for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>so-labelled, "straight line overhead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>casting"......NOT ALL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CASTING, >>BY ANY MEANS. If we look at it that way,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you are absolutely >>CORRECT.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Gordy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>From: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Reply-To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Subject: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 05:19:38
-0000
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Hi Gordy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I've been thinking about the essentials listed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>below and I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>agree that [6] is an essential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I think what's really happening when a caster is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thinking about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>making an abrupt stop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>is that he's really making a crisp power
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>application [5]. There are
>>quite a few "stopless"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>casting styles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>including the TLT and Austrian style - which as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you know is how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>most Continental Europeans cast.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I know that runs contrary to much of what we teach
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>distance casters don't use an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>abrupt stop either but integrate drift/swoop into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>their stroke. I >>just sort of flop the rod over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>and hope.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I used to think that the stop was the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>important thing in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>flycasting, I now think it restricts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>distance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I think [3] should be or include proper casting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>arc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I hope you're getting some good fishing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > Group...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > Following a suggestion by Molly Semenik, I have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>one more >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >question on the 5 (or 6) ESSENTIALS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > In your own words, describe what you would do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to demonstrate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >clearly to a group of fly casting students, each
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>essential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You may >> >use a fly outfit or any other teaching
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>prop or
tool.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 1.) Straight Line Path of Rod Tip - I have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>short (one foot)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >section of a rod tip complete with tip top
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>guide. It >> enables
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>me to >> >hold the short section up to eye level and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>while moving it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>back >>and >forth as per casting strokes, I can use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the
other hand to >>clearly >demonstrate the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>straight line path by accompanying the rod >>tip with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >the flat palm of my other hand.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 2.) Eliminate Slack - When teaching, I always
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stress this very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >early in the lesson. I have always liked and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>used Lefty's >> way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of >> >putting this. With the line laying out about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>30' with a bit of >> >slack, he points to the fly and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>leader and states: "Ain't nothing >> >gonna happen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>until that fly starts to move." After stating that >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >fact, I demonstrate how much of the back stroke is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wasted pulling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >out slack that was not removed. I also, to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>indicate the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>uselessness
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >of slack in casting and to interject a little levity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bit of an >ice breaker, use the analogy of a drunk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pulling a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>chain down the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >street, when asked by a very proper lady, why he is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>pulling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a chain, >he replies, "Lady, did you ever try pushing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>of these things?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 3.) Short Line - Short Stroke, Long Line - Long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Stroke - I use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >analogies here also. To indicate proper stroke
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>length, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pantomine >> >throwing a line-drive baseball, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>requires a short straight line >> >throw/stroke for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>close throw and a longer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>straight >>stroke for a >longer ball. I also have the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>student watch the rod as >>I make longer >strokes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>while adding line.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 4.) Pause - I like to use the term -Timely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pause - With >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >beginners I try to have them temporarily adapt to a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>90%
stance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>and >watch their back cast straighten (almost
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>straighten). >>This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>has >>a >dual-fold purpose, as it allows them to see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the line trajectory >>and >often helps to keep their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>back casts up where they belong. If >>the >individual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>has trouble watching their back cast, I revert >>again
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to >one of Lefty's old methods. I ask them where they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>are >>from, and I >instruct them to make a back cast
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>while pausing long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>enough to state
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >their name and where they are from. It works like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>a charm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on a 30' >cast.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 5.) Proper Application of Power. - When
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>explaining power
and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >how to apply it, I have started to use a term
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>believe >> >our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>own >Gordy has coined, and that is "An accelerated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>acceleration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to a >> >stop", I have never heard it explained
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>better. For this all >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >important step I also use hands on guidance with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>permission.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>There >are many analogies for this also, such as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>driving in >>low
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gear >>then >shifting to second and finally high.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 6.) Abrupt Stop - When trying to explain the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>importance of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >stop, I allude to the elite distance caster's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(Steve >> Rajeff)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>words,
>> >when he was asked: What do the best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>casters do that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>other's >>fail to >do? And he replied; "They stop the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rod." As to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>demonstrating this, I >again like to, with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>%