Randy.....
Great info. Hard to argue with Steve's success.....but then we must remember the slippery thin shooting line you competition guys are using. Not the same as the WF standard lines that MCI candidates are using for their exams.
I remember those buckets in the late '30's and 40's.
Thanks for helpful input !
Gordy
From: "Randy Olson" <bigfly@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: long casting
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 16:24:18 -0500
Dr. Hill,
In ACA events casting is almost always done on freshly mowed grass, preferably with the clippings raked off, no towels or the like. Light mono shooting line on slick surfaces as you mentioned can be a nightmare. I like bare grass for the same reason Mr.Jaworowski used spikes of some sort to keep his line under control in stripping baskets.
You've been fishing longer than I've been alive, so I appreciate your historical perspective! No one currently uses an external device like a bucket probably because it would take more time to load the basket correctly than the time gained by piling it in coils on the grass. Any idea when that method was in vogue? They are timed events so anything to save time is a good idea. BTW, I know you know this, but others might not...this line tender or ghillie only allowed on Single and Double Hand Fly, not the Angler's Fly event.
I personally pile the line to the rear and side, but when your shooting line is sometimes 6,8 or 12lb mono I doubt if it would hurt anything to pile it in front since there isn't a lot of friction anyway. It just feels right to me to have the source pile in line with the guides to some extent. I figure if there is a better way, Steve R. would have tried it so I do what he does in this case.
-Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Hill"
To: cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx, sobbobfish@xxxxxxx, rtab@xxxxxxx, CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx, creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, dwright@xxxxxxxxxxxx, daver@xxxxxxxxxx, dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx, captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx, ephemera@xxxxxxx, brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx, barefootj@xxxxxxx, bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx, ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx, mkreider1@xxxxxxx, martyt@xxxxxxxxxx, niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx, pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, bigfly@xxxxxxxxx, whorwood@xxxxxxxxx, flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, sheila@xxxxxxxxxx, scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx, tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: long casting
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 14:28:08 -0500
Tom...
I've tried that. Works fine unless you have a strong wind which can blow the pile of line off the slippery plastic surface.
Also, I found that if the coils change position on the ground for any reason, it increases the likelihood of a tangle.
This is the reason that some wide stripping baskets and "casting mats" for boats have little spikes of mono or broom straws or plastic spikes on the surface which holds the line coils. I think Ed Jaworowski was responsible for that idea. He made one such stripping basket for me and for Bob Andreae. Works fine.
The commercially available, "Line tamer" is a cylindrical bucket-like device with a heavy non-slip bottom. It doesn't need spikes, because the line stripped into it tends to coil against the inner wall of the device so the coils don't tangle on the shoot. I used to use this on the lawn on a very windy day......but it's bulky and heavy. A towel is just plain easy and it works.
Years ago the tournament caster had someone called a, "line tender" to monitor coils of shooting line in a bucket with the same idea in mind. I don't know if any tournament distance casters use that method any longer.
One other reason to consider having the line in front of you, is that YOU CAN SEE IT and know that it isn't tangled or blown off. In the event that you see a tangle beginning, you can abort the cast behind you and it will likely not count (on a casting test or a tournament.)
It's also closer to the target.......and maybe it is that fact which counters the little bit of additional friction produced by the different angle between the line and the stripper guide. (?????) ( At least 3' less distance that it has to go toward the target.)
Gordy
From: "North Fork Flies - Tom Cooper" <cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: "North Fork Flies - Tom Cooper" <cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: long casting
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:59:21 -0500
Gordy,Sometimes I'll use a garbage can sized plastic bag stretched tight with 6 penny nails in the corners pushed down into the dirt. It offers a slick, frictionless surface for the line to pull off of.Tom Cooper----- Original Message -----From: Gordon HillTo: Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx ; sobbobfish@xxxxxxx ; rtab@xxxxxxx ; CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx ; creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; dwright@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; daver@xxxxxxxxxx ; dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx ; ephemera@xxxxxxx ; brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx ; barefootj@xxxxxxx ; bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx ; ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx ; mkreider1@xxxxxxx ; martyt@xxxxxxxxxx ; niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx ; pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; bigfly@xxxxxxxxx ; whorwood@xxxxxxxxx ; flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; sheila@xxxxxxxxxx ; scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; tharper@xxxxxxxxxxxCc: mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; caddis@xxxxxxx ; Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx ; cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx ; crazycharlie@xxxxxxx ; croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx ; DermSox@xxxxxxx ; gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxx ; gavin@xxxxxxxxxxx ; hillshead@xxxxxxx ; iverson@xxxxxxxxx ; jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx ; jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx ; kathleen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx ; plami@xxxxxxxxxxx ; ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; kerrrc@xxxxxxxxx ; simbirsw@xxxxxxx ; bobbeanblossomFFF@xxxxxxxxxxx ; hillcathy@xxxxxxx ; dnewpher@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx ; douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx ; flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx ; gregrahe@xxxxxxxxxxx ; hlhpc@xxxxxxx ; jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; jhara.carter@xxxxxxxxxxx ; harveyjl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx ; skifishvail@xxxxxxxx ; jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; trallag@xxxxxxx ; captflyrod@xxxxxxx ; mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; fraudflies@xxxxxxx ; shane@xxxxxxxxx ; snowmonkey29@xxxxxxxSent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 9:29 AMSubject: RE: long castingol Al...and Troy.
Good suggestions. One could go into pages on choice of rod and line design, etc.....no end to it.
I find that the stripping basket interfers with my best form. Perhaps that's why the pro level tournament casters don't use one.
For us mere mortals, I find that a beach towel placed on the ground upon which the line is coiled works just great for demonstration distance casts......especially if the grass is gnarley. (Good tip for those of you who are going to be taking your MCI exams.)
I find that coiling the line on the towel at the START mark also reminds me to step back a step before making my distance cast. That makes it a lot less likely that I'll be standing on a coil of line as I make my cast. (Occasionally a candidate ruins a distance cast that way on an exam.)
Gordy
From: "Miller, Troy" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>, "Rod Henderson" <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Jerry Puckett" <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>, "Ron Mc Quary" <codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Wes Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>, "Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>, "Travis Burt" <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Sonny Hinojosa" <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>, "Dennis Burns" <Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Marshall Lasswell" <mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "jeff jackson" <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>, "Rusty dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Dale Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>, "gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>, "keith Richard" <KRichard@xxxxxxx>, "Steve Hollensed" <stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>, "Ron Allen Thomas" <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Matt Wilhem" <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "LC Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Ken Cole" <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "james Parker" <james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "James Russell" <jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>, "Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Gary Wood" <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>, "Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>, "dave Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>, "Clay Roberts" <CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "cindy Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>, "Stacy Trimble" <stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Steve Barlow" <steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "john Deardorff" <jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "david Bradley" <dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>, "Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: long casting
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 17:37:16 -0600
Lots of good answers so far. The only one that I have any difference of opinion on is whether we need to incline our forward line path for maximum distance. That the 180 rule will require that our backcast will be slightly downhill, and I don?t care for that unless I?m up on a platform casting.
I?ll add ?
- DOUBLE HAUL!! (what else would you expect the hauloholic to say??) J
- Use a stiffer rod.
- Use a flyline with a stiffer core and a harder finish.
- Use a shortish leader with a long butt and aggressive taper.
- Use a smallish yarn fly. Don?t go without one. The yarn will act as a stabilizer, improving the smoothness and shape of the loop. Too much yarn will act like a parachute on a drag racer.
- Carry as much line in the air as you can COMFORTABLY, and not a bit more. When you make your final shoot, the stroke needs to be with your absolute BEST form ? which will be impossible if you?re carrying more than you?re capable.
- (I can?t believe I haven?t heard this yet!!) CLEAN YOUR FLYLINE!!
- Drop a line weight (or even two for heavier line weights).
- Go to Denver (preferably an indoor arena).
- Like Gordy said, finish after the stop with the rod pointed down the bottom leg of your loop. This will reduce friction and maximize your shoot.
- Use a stripping basket if you?re casting outdoors (wind, grass and water like to foul/add friction to the line that you?re trying to shoot).
- Once you?ve carefully laid your line in coils on the floor, DON?T move your feet while casting. If you like an open stance, then stand in that stance while you?re arranging your coils beside your feet. If you still have problems shuffling your feet, then take a giant step forward after coiling your line and before starting to cast. This will usually prevent you from stepping on your line as you try to shoot.
- Don?t forget about the backcast delivery for distance casting if the wind is from your rod side. I can cast MUCH further making a backcast presentation (more accurately, as well) than I can trying to cant the rod to the downwind side or make a cross body cast. Sidearm casters (Lefty-style) generally have inadequate power for distance casting when they have to make the stroke on their off-side. If you haven?t seen Sedotti?s Sayonara Sling, you need to pay heed.
I?ll probably think of five more after sending this, but that?s what comes to mind at the moment.
Regards -- TAM
-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Crise [mailto:flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 2:38 PM
To: Rod Henderson; Jerry Puckett; Ron Mc Quary; Wes Hodgson; Gary Eaton; Travis Burt; Sonny Hinojosa; Dennis Burns; Marshall Lasswell; jeff jackson; Rusty dunn; John Till; Dale Connally; gordon Hill; keith Richard; Steve Hollensed; Ron Allen Thomas; Matt Wilhem; LC Clower; Ken Cole; james Parker; James Russell; Harry Boyd; Gary Wood; Don DeRidder; dave Speer; Clay Roberts; cindy Alexander; Stacy Trimble; Steve Barlow; john Deardorff; david Bradley; Miller, Troy; Harvey Harris; ol Al
Subject: FW: long casting
from Gordy
Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
SOC VP of Education
Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
2508 A County Road 1011
Glen Rose, TX 76043
254-897-2045
geocities.com/rrdoctor
flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
Hi, ol Al.......
I'd add these:
1.) BEND your rod.
2.) Come to a crisp stop.
3.) Raise your arm and aim the rod tip at the target on the followthrough.
Gordy
From: "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Rod Henderson" <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Jerry Puckett" <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Mc Quary" <codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Wes Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>,"Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>,"Travis Burt" <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Sonny Hinojosa" <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>,"Dennis Burns" <Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Marshall Lasswell" <mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"jeff jackson" <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>,"Rusty dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Dale Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>,"gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>,"keith Richard" <KRichard@xxxxxxx>,"Steve Hollensed" <stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Allen Thomas" <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Matt Wilhem" <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"LC Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ken Cole" <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"james Parker" <james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"James Russell" <jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>,"Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Gary Wood" <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>,"Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>,"dave Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>,"Clay Roberts" <CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"cindy Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>,"Stacy Trimble" <stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Steve Barlow" <steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"john Deardorff" <jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"david Bradley" <dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>,"Troy Miller" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>,"ol Al" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: FW: long casting
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:11:29 -0600From Dave
I like this because it is short and right on.
I want to know:
What you do to make longer cast?
There are many variables here. In no specific order.
1. Longer Casting stroke.
2. Used a line with a longer belly
3. Used more body with a wider stance and stepping into it a bit.
4. Increase Line Speed
5. Shoot line both forward and back cast.
6. Tighten up your loops.
7. Drifting
8. Turn wrist after the stop putting guides onto side of rod to keep line slap to minimum
What are the mechanics that make the long cast work?
1. Long Cast Long= Long Stroke/Pause
2. Loading the rod deeper (hauls and dble hauls included) creates more energy. Line Speed
3. Shooting line allows more line to be airborne without overloading the rod or passing the "hinge"
What can you tell us that will help us or your student make longer cast?
1. SLP SLP SLP
2. Change trajectory to a slightly uphill angle on forward cast.
3. Don't be affraid to shoot line on the back cast and forward cast.
4. Try to lay the rod back a bit more with drifting, reach back to get the longest stroke possible while maintaining SLP
5. If the back cast is bad, Don't try to make the cast!
Allen Crise <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:Howdy gang;
Here are some good Reponses to making a longer cast
from Rod
What do you do to make a longer cast? This is the mental list I go through that has helped me. I'm teaching my mom and dad to cast and it seems to be improving theirs as well. (so far)
1) Sharpen my stops on the backcast
2) Wait longer to allow the rod to load up (better drift)
3) Don't overpower the stroke into the second stop.
4) Sharpen my stop on the forward cast
I got one from Dave that was really good Dave if you can resend it I must have dropped in some file that I do not use ... Bummer is was right on. I wanted to make a copy of it.
ol Al
Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
SOC VP of Education
Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
2508 A County Road 1011
Glen Rose, TX 76043
254-897-2045
geocities.com/rrdoctor
flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
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