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    • Distance style

    Walter....

    Raising the casting arm and pointing the rod at just above the distance target during followthrough after loop formation is an effective way to reduce guide and tip-top friction during the shoot, as you point out.

                                                                      Gordy




     

    From: Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
    To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
    Subject: Re: Gordie's email list?
    Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:06:31 -0600

    Gordy - You showed me the Waterworks reel at the conclave - mighty impressive.
     
    I'm also not a fan of the wire loop tip tops.  The tip top and stripper guides are probably the ones where the
    line makes the most contact. For the stripper guides we recognize this and use guides that provide more
    surface area for the contact and are very slick. At the tip top the concentration has been
    to keep the tip top as light as possible because of the affect of tip mass on the rod speed, energy transfer,
    etc. The result is we have a titanium wire embedded in an aluminum or stainless steel sleeve. This leads to
    the "V" you mentioned which causes problems. Also we end up with the line sliding over a very small
    surface area.
     
    When we do a distance cast we point the rod in the direction of the line after the stop to reduce the friction
    of the line sliding over the guides but for much of our casting the rod ends up at some other angle relative
    to the line and the line makes a very abrupt direction change as it slides over the wire loop of the tip top.
     
    Cheers
     
    Walter
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Gordon Hill
    To: simbirsw@xxxxxxx ; flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx ; sobbobfish@xxxxxxx ; rtab@xxxxxxx ; CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx ; creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; dwright@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; daver@xxxxxxxxxx ; dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx ; ephemera@xxxxxxx ; brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx ; keysjake@xxxxxxx ; barefootj@xxxxxxx ; bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx ; ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx ; mkreider1@xxxxxxx ; martyt@xxxxxxxxxx ; niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx ; pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; bigfly@xxxxxxxxx ; whorwood@xxxxxxxxx ; flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; sheila@xxxxxxxxxx ; scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx ; tomwhite@xxxxxxxxxxxx
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    Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:10 PM
    Subject: Re: Gordie's email list?

    Walter....

    I agree with you.

    For quite a while, now, I've been making up my fly rods with REC "RECOIL" guides.  The whole set weighs about the same as one standard  Fuji stripping guide.  Also.....they don't rust at the entry to the epoxy/wrapping the way every other guide we've tried does when used repeatedly in salt water.

    REC titanium/Ni tip tops need re designing (in my opinion).  They make 2 types......one with an aluminum sleeve for light wt. and another with a stainless steel sleeve.  Both use titanium wire for the loop.  Problem is that the loop insertion into the sleeve forms a "V" which I think can result in some increased friction against the line when under pressure of max load.  The aluminum sleeve is light....but corrodes in the salt.

    When teaching, practicing, or demonstrating where I might be casting all day long......and not fighting fish,  I prefer to use the Waterworks "Purist" ULA reel.  My favorite is the "P-3" model.  It's made of aluminum and titanium, weighs very little, and the ultra large arbor doesn't kink the line.  I'd like to see a machined Ti/ni tip top.

    Unfortunately the company has discontinued that model....but they still make the "P-2" model which is even lighter, though a bit smaller.

    A good alternative, is the Lamson Litespeed #3. (This is also made by the same company.)

                                                                              Gordy




     

    From: Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
    To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
    Subject: Re: Gordie's email list?
    Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 00:26:03 -0600

    "I SUSPECT THAT THE ROD MAKERS WHO SAY THAT THERE IS AN OPTIMUM NUMBER OF GUIDES FOR EACH ROD LENGTH AND DESIGN ARE CORRECT.  TOM WHITE POINTS OUT, THAT THE HEIGHT OF THE STRIPPER GUIDE FROM THE BLANK MAY WELL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE DIAMETER OF IT'S RING."
     
    Yep - I have to agree on that.  Another thing we are seeing is the move to single foot guides. The latest designs use very light titanium frames with very slick inserts. These new guides are almost
    as light as snake guides and cut the number of required thread wraps and amount of epoxy in half. The result is a rod that is lighter for better energy transfer to the line, has a more natural
    action/feel (the double foot guides create stiff spots on the rod), and excellent shootability because of the slickness of the rings. Another benefit is that the rings can be rotated in the
    frames thus increasing their lifetime significantly.
     
    In my mind the next significant advances in fly casting equipment will be improved guides and reels. The rod blanks are already very light and very fast. With the exception of a very few casters
    there isn't much point in making them faster. Advances in fly lines are probably going to slow down as well - slickness, memory, tapers are getting into areas of diminishing returns.
    With all of the advances in rods and lines we are still using (for the most part) pretty antiquated guides. Top quality rods use guides that produce a sound like sandpaper when
    shooting line. Even with lines with AST and similar levels of slickness we still need to clean and lubricate the line and guides regularly otherwise the ability to shoot line and double haul is
    affected. In addition, the guides (along with wraps and epoxy) provide a significant portion of the weight in today's rods.
     
    The other area of improvement in casting equipment is the reel. We take a 3 ounce rod, add one ounce of line, and add a 5 ounce reel. Not hard to figure where the greatest improvement
    in weight reduction has to come from.
     
    Cheers
     
    ----- Original Message -----
    Cc: mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; caddis@xxxxxxx ; Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx ; cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx ; crazycharlie@xxxxxxx ; croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx ; DermSox@xxxxxxx ; gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; hillshead@xxxxxxx ; iverson@xxxxxxxxx ; jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx ; jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx ; thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx ; plami@xxxxxxxxxxx ; ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; bobbeanblossom@xxxxxxx ; hillcathy@xxxxxxx ; donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx ; douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx ; flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx ; gregrahe@xxxxxxxxxxx ; ianmuirhead@xxxxxxx ; jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx ; skifishvail@xxxxxxxx ; jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; trallag@xxxxxxx ; mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; fraudflies@xxxxxxx ; shane@xxxxxxxxx ; snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx
    Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 8:42 AM
    Subject: Re: Gordie's email list?

    Walter.....

    You bring up some good points.....let's share.

    My comments in bold type in your text.

                                               Gordy




     

    From: Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
    To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
    Subject: Re: Gordie's email list?
    Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 17:32:18 -0600

    Hey Gordy - thanks for the feed back. I'm also glad to hear main body of the storm has moved on. Hope you didn't sustain significant damage.
     
    Guess I did okay for the 15 minute answers. :)  YOU DID WELL !
     
    I actually realized a couple of more glaring errors after I hit the send button.
     
    On questions 1 and 4 I think Gary Borger (and probably others - I just heard it from him first) sums it up pretty well when he says the cast is over as soon as the line
    begins to move faster than the rod top. Anything else is a mend.     YES.....IN FACT ONE DEFINITION OF A MEND IS, " MANIPULATION OF THE LINE IN THE AIR OR ON THE WATER, AFTER THE CAST."  LOOKING AT IT THAT WAY, ONE CAN CONSIDER THE SO-CALLED "REACH CAST" AS A CAST WITH A REACH MEND......OR A "CAST-MEND".  THE SAME THING IS TRUE OF MANY CURVED CASTS DURING WHICH THE FLY IS DIRECTED IN ONE DIRECTION DURING THE TRUE CAST......AND THE BELLY OF THE LINE DIRECTED IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION SO QUICKLY AFTERWARD THAT IT ALL APPEARS TO OCCCUR AT THE STOP.  IN TRUTH, PART OF IT HAPPENED JUST PRIOR TO THE STOP, AND THE REMAINDER AFTERWARD......SO I'D CALL THOSE CASTS, "CAST-MENDS" TO BE TECHNICALLY CORRECT.
     
    We can think of extenuating circumstances (e.g. a very weak cast of just a few inches or millimeters or rod tip movement followed by a cast in the same direction with
    a smooth long stroke) but this is just splitting hairs. The cast is over when the line speed exceeds the rod tip speed. In a well executed cast this will occur at the RSP.
    When the cast is over the line will begin to fall and the loop is formed.
     
    I've been thinking about this one for a while and wasn't quite sure if the rod tip could exert additional force on the line after RSP. Your explanation clears that up very
    well - after RSP the tip (and hence the line) has achieved maximum speed, after that it is decelerating and is, therefore, moving slower than the line. The cast is over.
     
    A GOOD QUESTION.  AFTER RSP, WE HAVE COUNTERFLEX AND REBOUND.  COUNTERFLEX, IF GREAT (AS IN THE CASE OF A LIMBER OR SOFT ACTION ROD USED FOR DISTANCE CASTING) CAN TEAR THAT LOOP OPEN TO MAKE IT WIDER THAN IT WOULD OTHERWISE HAVE BEEN.  THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS THAT IT IS MORE DIFFICULT TO MAKE REALLY TIGHT LOOPS WITH THESE RODS.  WE SHOULD ALL HEED STEVE RAJEFF'S COMMENT THAT A PERFECTLY TIMED UPWARD THRUST AT THE STOP CAN HAVE THE EFFECT OF MINIMIZING THIS ACTION OF COUNTERFLEX ON THE LOOP AS ONE WAY OF FORMING REALLY SHARP LOOPS.
     
    On question 5 a - Removing slap is correct (no debate on that) but many custom rod builders recommend adding one or two guides more than the standard formulae
    provided by the rod manufaturers as they find they can shoot line farther. Adding more than one or two guides increases friction significantly and reduces the
    ability to shoot line. The general explanation the rod builders give is that it reduces friction but, again, I think you have a better answer. I think it reduces rod slap
    and helps align the line (so it isn't wrapped around the rod or dragging along the rod) for shooting. If we look at the physics involved - more guides means more
    leading edges and hence more friction in all cases. Fuji Concept guides would tend to favour the explanation of aligning the line for optimum line shooting.
     
    I SUSPECT THAT THE ROD MAKERS WHO SAY THAT THERE IS AN OPTIMUM NUMBER OF GUIDES FOR EACH ROD LENGTH AND DESIGN ARE CORRECT.  TOM WHITE POINTS OUT, THAT THE HEIGHT OF THE STRIPPER GUIDE FROM THE BLANK MAY WELL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE DIAMETER OF IT'S RING.
     
    Another question I've been thinking about is "when does line that is shot actually shoot?" - immediately? after the loop fully unrolls? A combination of the two? I believe,
    by watching videos and trying it out for myself, that the answer is a combination of the two. The physical models I've seen for loop size vs drag assume that the rod end
    of the line is fixed for the analysis. I think this is too much of a oversimplification because most people shoot line on a large percentage of their casts.
     
    ALMOST ALL OF THE LINE IS SHOT BEFORE THE LOOP FULLY UNFURLS.  AN EXCEPTION MAGNIFIED BY MARK SEDOTTI'S INCREDIBLE CASTS WITH HEAVILY WEIGHTED LARGE FLIES, IS THE SITUATION WHERE THE CASTER HAS GENERATED GREAT LOOP SPEED WITH A WEIGHTED FLY.  HERE, THERE IS SOME DEGREE OF MOMENTUM YIELDING A SMALL AMOUNT OF ADDITIONAL DISTANCE AFTER THE LOOP HAS COMPLETELY UNROLLED.  THE VIDEO'S I'VE SEEN HAVE SHOWN NO ADDITIONAL SHOOT AFTER THE LOOP HAS UNFURLED WHEN A DRY FLY OR YARN IS USED.
     
                                                      GORDY
     
    Cheers
     
    Walter
     
    ----- Original Message -----
    Cc: mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; caddis@xxxxxxx ; Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx ; cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx ; crazycharlie@xxxxxxx ; croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx ; DermSox@xxxxxxx ; gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; hillshead@xxxxxxx ; iverson@xxxxxxxxx ; jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx ; jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx ; thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx ; plami@xxxxxxxxxxx ; ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; bobbeanblossom@xxxxxxx ; hillcathy@xxxxxxx ; donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx ; douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx ; flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx ; gregrahe@xxxxxxxxxxx ; ianmuirhead@xxxxxxx ; jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx ; skifishvail@xxxxxxxx ; jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; trallag@xxxxxxx ; mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; fraudflies@xxxxxxx ; shane@xxxxxxxxx ; snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx
    Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 4:34 PM
    Subject: Re: Gordie's email list?

    Hi, Walter....

    Note my answers in bold type inserted in your text:

                                                           Gordy




     

    From: WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
    To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
    Subject: Re: Gordie's email list?
    Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:45:15 -0600
    Gordy! Thanks for getting me on your list. I'll see if I can answer your test in 15 minutes or less
    (not to be a smart ass but because I'm taking a break at work) :)

    1. As soon as force is no longer applied to the fly line to counteract gravity the
    line begins to fall.

    GRAVITY IS ALWAYS AT WORK.  IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE STOP, SOME DEGREE OF FALLING STARTS.  IT FALLS DRAMATICALLY FASTER WHEN FORWARD MOTION OF THE LINE/LEADER CEASES AT THE POINT WHERE THE LOOP HAS FULLY UNROLLED.

    2. To supply energy for the cast.

    YES....ALTHOUGH SOME OF THAT ENERGY CAN COME FROM A HAUL MADE BY THE OPPOSITE HAND. THE PRIMARY DUTY OF THE ROD HAND IS THE EXECUTION OF THE MECHANICS OF THE CAST.

    3. - also applies energy when hauling
    - keeps line from getting tangled
    - aids in turning over the fly (triple haul)
    - remove slack from the casting system during the cast
    - strip in line when fish runs toward you
    - I also use it to crank the reel (but I'm not one of those strange people that like to
    cast and crank with the same hand)

    GOOD ANSWER. INCLUDES HAULS, CONTROL OF SLACK, RETRIEVING LINE, AND MAINTAINANCE OF TENSION (BY MINIMIZING SLACK).  MIGHT ADD THE STRIP-STRIKING OF FISH, TOO.

    4. I would tell a student that the loop begins to form at the soon as the stop is made.
    I tell myself that the loop begins to form as soon as I begin my casting stroke.

    NO.  THE LOOP DOESN'T BEGIN TO FORM UNTIL THE LINE BEGINS TO OVERTAKE THE ROD TIP IN THE DIRECTION OF THE CAST.  THAT OCCURS EXACTLY AT THE RSP. (ROD STRAIGHT POSITION) WHICH AS AFTER THE POINT THAT THE HAND AND ROD BUTT SECTION STOP.  INTERESTINGLY, IT IS DURING THIS BRIEF TIME THAT THE ROD TIP IS MOVING FASTEST.

    WHEN YOU FIRST BEGIN YOUR STROKE, YOU ARE PROVIDING AT LEAST ONE INGREDIENT NEEDED TO FORM A LOOP, AND THAT IS LINE ACCELERATION.....BUT YOU DO NEED THE RSP AFTER YOUR STOP OR NO LOOP (OR A POOR SEMBLENCE OF SAME AT BEST) WILL FORM.

    5. a - reduce friction when shooting line
    b - make sure the rod bends uniformly so it doesn't break

    IF WE HAD MORE GUIDES.....SAY ABOUT 40 OF THEM ON A ROD, WE'D HAVE MORE FRICTION, NOT LESS. WHEN CASTING, THE GUIDES PROVIDE CONTROL OF THE LINE SO IT DOESN'T SLAP THE ROD AND WRAP AROUND IT.  TO THE EXTENT THAT IT DOES THIS, HOWEVER, THEY DO MINIMIZE THE FRICTION YIELDED BY THAT SCENARIO......SO YOU ARE NOT WRONG.

    YOUR b.) ANSWER IS CORRECT.  ALL OF THE FRICTION OCCURS AT THE ROD TIP IN FIGHTING A FISH AND THIS PLACES TREMENDOUS LOADS ON THE TIP SECTION .  WHEN I TRIED THIS, IT ACTUALLY PULLED THE GLUED TIP RIGHT OFF ON ONE OCCASION.

    6. To quote an advertisement for the Marrayat Plus "dual mode" fly reel.
    The meaning of "dual mode" is that there are two main functions:
    1) Anti-reverse: The handle doesn't turn when line goes out. (Even when
    cranking the handle, the line can continue to go out!)
    2) Direct Drive: While cranking, the handle and spool are fixed and rotate
    together, achieving a high retrieval force, just like any other traditional
    fly reel.
    Switching from Anti-reverse to Direct Drive can be done any time, simply
    by squeezing the two pads that are inside the handle.

    CORRECT, WITH THAT MODEL.  WITH OTHER DUAL  MODE REELS, THE REEL IS AN ANTI REVERSE DEVICE UNTIL THE ANGLER STARTS TO GRASP THE HANDLE AND TURN.  THEN IT BECOMES A DIRECT DRIVE REEL.

    7. An S-shaped braided loop held together by a single strand of pole elastic under tension
    attached to the end of a fly line to act as a strike indicator. Used in Czech nymphing.

    YES.  ALSO USED BY SOME TO REDUCE LEADER SHOCK WHEN USING 8x TIPPETS.

    8. Also called dapping. Used in Loch and river fishing. Two rods are tied together with
    a length of line. The fly is suspended from this line using a leader. The fly is not
    cast but is dapped on the surface of the water to attract the fish.

    YES.  THE TERM IS ALSO APPLIED TO THE USE OF A WIND RESISTANT LEADER SECTION LIKE YARN TO "KITE" THE FLY OUT ON THE WATER.

    9. The distance wind blows over open water. The longer the fetch the more powerful the
    waves.

    GOOD ANSWER !  MOST DID NOT GET THIS ONE RIGHT.

    10. Joining two lengths of monofilament line such as when building a leader.

    YES.

         YOU DID VERY WELL, WALTER !

                                                                               GORDY

    From: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
    To: simbirsw@xxxxxxx
    Subject: Re: Gordie's email list?
    Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:41:58 -0400

    Walter....

    Here's a list of questions I sent out to our Group.  Several did well.....only one got 100 percent.  Give it a try.....ok to consult your books.

    1.)  You have just made a forward cast to a STOP.  When does the line/loop begin to fall ?

    2.) What is the primary duty of the rod hand ?

    3.) Name 5 duties of the line hand.

    4.) Your student asks you when the loop actually begins to form in relation to his casting stroke.  What do you tell him ?

    5.) What is the main function of the guides on a fly rod ?

         a.) When casting ?

         b.) When fighting a fish ?

    (#5 can be a brain twister and a half.  Dennis Grant and I discussed this at the conclave, but I didn't gain a clear idea about it until I omitted stringing up through the guides and ran the line through the tip top alone.)

    6.) What is a DUAL MODE FLY REEL ?

    7.)  What is BUNGEE BUTT ?

    8.)  What is meant by BLOW LINE FISHING ?

    9.) What is "FETCH" .

    10.) Give one good use for a double nail knot.

    Take the plunge and give it a stab......it's fun.  Go ahead and use your books for any answer.

                                                                           Gordy




     

    From: WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
    To: hillshead@xxxxxxx
    Subject: Re: Gordie's email list?
    Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:53:46 -0600
    Gordy - you there?

    Walter

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx
    Date: Monday, August 22, 2005 11:47 am
    Subject: Re: Gordie's email list?

    > Hi Walter
    >
    > Gordy had a problem with you first email here is gordys address.
    > We'll try again
    > hillshead@xxxxxxx
    > Dennis
    >
    >
    > <P>Dennis - did you get my email about getting on Gordie's email
    > list? Don't want to be
    > pushy - I want
    > to see if he can help me get a set of orthopedic waders.   :-)</P>
    > <P>Cheers</P>
    > <P>Walter</P>
    > <P>PS - I've been working on the back cast. I'm getting much
    > better with short casts. Just
    > got to work
    > on getting control when I have more line in the air. Thanks to you
    > and Gordie for your
    > help!</P>
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >