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Walter & Group....
[GH] Taking a specific cast like the distance roll cast and submitting it to scrutiny from a standpoint of PRACTICE is what we are doing here. We can thank John Johnson for starting this so well. Let's continue.
Gordy
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From Jim Valle. My brief comments in his text in red:
Gordy and Group,
I just completed 2 weeks of MCI and CI testing and Continuing Education at Marlborough and Somerset. Roll casts were one of the topics we covered in some of the Continuing Education Classes. (When a program is offered in your council or region I would suggest you consider attending, really good stuff)
On roll casts there are a couple additional things I would add :
1. John Van Dalen’s Power after Midnight is important in that it is also the secret to making roll casts on the grass and at a large show or demonstration if a caster comes up to you as an instructor and asks you to demonstrate a roll cast, replying “ let me find a clipboard” etc, just isn’t going to cut it.
[GH] Once you know all the on-the-grass roll cast practice tricks, you don't need a clip board, a "roll cast tool", or anyone standing on the leader to do it.
2. The Mass of the D loop is extremely important as stated previously however too many candidates fail to actually get a good D loop, the back side and bottom of the D loop should be well behind the caster.
[GH] Hard to overemphasize that for distance roll casting. A long arm helps ... but that isn't optional. Getting BOTH your arm and the fly rod tip back far enough is.
3. Tracking…. Most do not understand the principle as it applies to a roll cast…. Most bring the rod back and out to the side in the rear set up….and then bring the rod to the vertical plane for the forward cast… that means the fly or anchor leg is 8 or 9 feet offset from what will be the rod leg. This is an absolute fatal flaw in a distance roll cast. Cast the rod tip out over the anchor leg and you will see the difference immediately, try it in the horizontal and you will feel the difference.
[GH] Yes! Practice the way Jim describes it. That alignment at the set up is critical. Straight line relationship between the apex of your D-loop, your rod tip, the "anchor" and the target will help with tracking.
Several years ago, I witnessed Cathy Beck beat several male tournament casters in the distance roll casting event in Denver with ease. I noted one common denominator: She had everything perfectly aligned in a straight line with her set-up.* She, and a couple of the others, used an off- horizontal casting plane.
4. Extend your forward stroke ….and power late … “after midnight”.
[GH] Bruce Richards has shown that delaying rotation helps yield a tight loop. I've never been sure exactly why .... unless, when I take his advice and do that, I have less time to screw it up (?????).
5. And here is one that Lefty beat me severely about …. “Don’t bend your wrist” … No No Gxx Dzz it! I said D’ONT use your Wrist! … I didn’t get it till he forced me to watch my wrist sure enough I was driving my rod tip in a circular path by flexing my wrist… Just another of many things Lefty taught me … Thanks Lefty!
[GH] Sure ... I know, your first thought is, "Well...that is style." It is. However, for me it works great. That day, Lefty got on both of us for using too much wrist with that style.
6. And of course an active line roll or switch is going to add even more efficiency.
[GH] For MCI candidates: True. However, be careful how you interpret the sentence under EXPECTATIONS for Task 6 on the MCI exam which says: "THE BACK LOOP MAY HAVE REARWARD MOMENTUM AT THE TIME THE FORWARD CAST IS BEGUN.
You may not flip it or throw it back if you adhere to the sentence which reads: "THE BACK LOOP SHOULD BE ESTABLISHED BY SLOWLY DRAGGING THE LINE INTO POSITION WITHOUT THE FLY LEAVING THE SURFACE. That, as I interpret it, would leave me with precious little momentum.
All in all the roll is about many little pieces of Efficiency!
Hope this helps,
Jim V
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Bob Stouffer comes in with some other valuable roll cast practice tips. These are in line with what Jim Valle taught us. They represent sharply focused practice to a purpose :
Dr. Gordy
Roll Casting.
I was not able to get the fifty feet until I learned two things: that the cast begins "very slowly" and that the result is much better if you pay close attention to the location of the rod tip in relation to the layout of the line.
Try laying the line way off to one side as if there were a stump between you and the line layout or as if the wind had caused you to position the line there.
Adjust the rod plane to track the rod tip directly above the line layout.
On the next cast, lay the line closer to your shoulder and track the rod tip directly above the line layout.
The farther the line from your shoulder, the lower the rod tip will be.
The closer the line layout to your shoulder, the higher the rod tip will be.
This (addictive) play with the line layout will pay dividends.
Begin the cast "very slowly" and watch the rod track directly above the line. A little spearing at the end of the stroke, combined with the haul, tightens the loop and adds distance.
[GH] "Spearing".... Never heard it called that, before. Very descriptive of a slightly upward thrust of the rod tip in the direction of the target as close to the start of loop formation as possible. This helps sharpen the loop and reduces friction between the fly line and the rod guides/tip top if line is shot. A few years ago, some of witnessed Lefty doing that on a distance back cast. We called it, "Lefty's stab". I never thought to mention that to Lefty. Also.... by using that technique, the caster is less likely to swing the rod tip down and open up the loop.
Bob Stouffer
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>From John Johnson .... more:
Thanks for the encouragement and suggestions. Just a few more comments.
1. I have tried the crouching down and I think this is effective but I think that the masters examiners would frown on a lunge movement.
2. The position of the line at the start of the roll casts has been a big problem for me as you may remember. The simplest way to do it is to simply pull out enough line to make the 50 ft , pull the rod back horizontally as far as possible and then make the cast. If I use a grass leader I can make the cast within a few feet of the distance 95% of the time. I still struggle with the last few feet. I have made the 12 ft grass leader with .025 mono and that seems to help. The other way is to anchor the end of the line with a clip board or loop on a stake. When I do this I can make the loop easily go out. Bruce tells me that telling if the cast will go 50ft is not a problem for the examiners. I have tried your plastic pipe anchor but it is a pain to replace it on each cast.
[GH] Right. It IS a pain to re-load each time. Took me a long time, but now I can do it on grass without it or any other artificial "anchor". One trick is to do it after hundreds of trials with different lengths of line out in front on the grass. Problem is, that some examiners might take issue with a roll cast set-up which differs from one used for roll casting on water.
3. I have a new high definition camera with a 170 angle of view that I can use to analyze this cast. I can pull the video into my Sony software and create snapshots at 30 frames per second. From these I should be able to make Power Point animations. I will have John VanDalen make the 50 cast and with a good video maybe I can figure out exactly what he is doing. I plan to video all of my practice sessions to make sure that the loops are perfect and the correct size. I will use my casting analyzer also to tie the animations with the angular velocity charts.
Again thanks for the help,
John Johnson
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[GH] John,
Takes more photo expertise than I have to get good views of the line loops and the caster's movements at the same time. If you can do it, you will have some valuable teaching material!
Gordy
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