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  • Re: CREEP & DRAG 7



    Walter,

    Let's ask him.

    My thought is that the average competent caster cannot move the hand (and therefore the rod) in translation anywhere near as fast as these expert competition distance casters.

    Without the means to time it, I'm estimating that I wouldn't be able to move my hand and rod tip during drag any faster than about 2 m/sec. whereas the rod tip will move several times faster during the rotation of the casting arc.  By comparison, I'd consider my drag move as slow.

    I think Bruce has studied these moves to the point that he may be able to cite some figures.

    Best,

    Gordy




    On Jan 20, 2012, at 11:23 AM, Walter Simbirski wrote:

    Hi Gordy,
     
    I know Bruce is more than capable of responding for himself but I'm sure some will comment on his statement that drag
    is short and slow. When I look at Paul Arden casting the 170 style for example he begins his forward cast with his hand
    as far back as it will go and the rod at horizontal (actually below horizontal in Paul's case). He then drags the rod from this
    extreme rearward position to a point where the rod is about half of an arm's length in front of him before any rotation of the
    rod occurs. At the same time he steps forward. Total amount of distance travelled by the rod in drag mode? About 8 or
    9 feet. That doesn't sound short or slow BUT while the rod hand and butt moved 8 or 9 feet the rod tip also moved 8 or 9 feet
    and I will guess that both ends of the rod were moving at around 2 - 3 yards or meters in a 1 - 1.5 second time frame.
     
    Compare that to laying the rod out horizontally pointing backward and simply rotating the wrist 180 degrees. The hand moved
    a few inches but the rod tip moved a total of 18 feet and it probably took less than a second.
     
    So my guess is that when Bruce says "slow and short" he's talking about the movement of the rod tip, which is what
    gets the line moving, and not the other end of the rod.
     
    This is not a comment on various casting styles or their relative efficiency. My thoughts in that regard are that we
    should ask Dick Fosbury his thoughts regarding conventional wisdom and applied physics when it comes to sports.  :)
     
    -25 here today. ugh!
     
    Cheers!
     
    Walter
     
     
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Gordy Hill
    Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 7:23 AM
    Subject: CREEP & DRAG 7



    Walter & Group...

    [GH] As we go from the CCI level to the MCI and beyond, we become more aware of differences of opinion on many elements of fly casting.  No more true than with discussions on CREEP and DRAG.

    Gordy

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    [GH] Paul Arden takes issue with the value of DRAG in taking up slack:

    Hi Gordy,

    I often hear this reducing slack argument for Drag or whatever. We know that the Tension in an unrolling loop is fairly even between the rod tip and the loop front. I don't know where this theoretical slack is meant to occur. It can happen in the rings. It can certainly happen after loop straight position. But if the caster is managing to put slack in the bottom leg then I think this is a small miracle and teaching Drag is not the solution. 

    I use Drag at the beginning of the Casting Stroke to modify the Casting Stroke and I know Steve does too because I've heard him discuss the differences between his 5 line distance cast and his accuracy casting. 

    The 170 style in not a European invention. But comes from Rick in Texas. Analysis of Steve's 5 weight stroke shows a very similar front Casting Arc. The real difference lies in his backcast. It's a smaller arc with a hard stop, undoubtedly incorporating pull-back. If you throw a 170 backcast then you need to Slide into position in order to keep the integrity of the haul. Both work and I know other excellent casters who compete with this backcast. Haysie is another example. 

    It would be great to see more casters from the USA at the world championships with fishing tackle in Norway this year. If anyone needs more information I can pass it along. 

    Cheers, Paul

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    [GH Paul,

    Thanks.  I believe it was Bruce Richards who first discussed with me the possibility of DRAG taking up a small amount of slack.

    If we look at a "sag" in the rod leg of the back cast loop as a form of slack, then it seems to me that by increasing tension a bit with DRAG might help straighten it.  I tried that this morning, but (rankly) couldn't be sure it did just that.  Hard to tell while watching your own back cast.

    Gordy

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    [GH] Bruce Richards comments on DRAG. Note that he places DRAG outside the casting stroke whereas Paul Arden sees it as part of the stroke :

    Hi Gordy!

    Drag is necessarily a slow, rather short motion. It can pull a bit of slack from the line before the casting stroke, but I just don't see how it can do much else, again, slow and short... Really not a very important motion compared to anything rotational, but can add just enough advantage to tighten loops and carry more line. At the limits, any little thing can have a significant impact.

    On long casts, long carry, making the line just a bit straighter before the casting stroke will cause more rod bend early in the stroke which usually results in a straighter tip path, and tighter loops. It's an efficiency thing.. I hope that makes sense..

    Bruce

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    [GH]  From David Edens:

    Gordy:
    This is interesting.  Recently I started experimenting with casting with a much longer stroke (170 degree)  with the rod at about a 45 degree angle.  I find when I add a good dose of translation at the beginning of the cast, continuing with a combination of translation and rotation, ending in a sudden stop, I am throwing greater distances with much tighter loops.
     
    I know why it works (bends the rod more), I just did not know what to call it.
     
    Capt. David Edens

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    [GH]  David,

    Your 170 degrees is the dimension of your casting arc.  This is also consistent with a longer casting stroke.  

    Some casters can bend the rod just as much whether or not they use DRAG.  Of course, rotation yields by far the greatest acceleration and, therefore, the greatest rod bend (load).  As a matter of style, this may give the caster a more efficient arm/hand position for the start of rotation.  If DRAG is used to increase line tension, then the caster starts his rotation phase (casting arc) with the back cast line straighter and that tension yielding a "pre-loaded" system.  

    Gordy

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    [GH] Walter Simbirski sent me this link to a video of Rick Hartman making a distance cast while using lots of DRAG.  He and Bill Gammel just sent me a frame by frame ppt set of pictures of one of Rick's casts.  We'll share that, tomorrow.
      

    Gordy

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