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Gordy,
Short answer:
I identify with what Bruce provided us.
Plus
I agree with what Paul stated
Plus
I view it as you and Chuck Easterling provided.
Long Answer:
Bruce in what I agree on in his statements:
But even if you consider translation through the entire cast, the motion is slow and short COMPARED TO THE DISTANCE MOVED AND SPEED OF THE ROD TIP which is accentuated by the fact it is at the end of a 9 ft. Lever.
Significant in a competitive situation, sure, any small contribution matters when another 2-3 feet of distance is important. But for more normal casting/fishing situations, speed added from rod hand translation is insignificant. In my opinion, the benefit from reducing slack in the line is much more important (for distance casting too) as it allows the rod to work more effectively and the rod is where the real speed comes from.
Paul in what he stated which means a lot in my opinion.
The point is if you put Drag outside of the CS by definition, then we don't start our roll cast until at some point later in the Stroke. That is a very strange situation to say to someone, "I bet you don't know when you start your cast; it's not when you think it is!"
For me Drag is a very useful teaching tool, to lump it outside the Casting Stroke with Creep for example, is a very odd thing to do.
Creep may a condition that reduces the stroke but it is still an element of the overall cast. Drag I feel contributes as Bruce stated to reducing slack in the cast to maintain tension for the most efficient condition needed to make a good cast. Which is also and element of the cast or should I say casting stroke which is the entire movement needed by a caster to complete the task or should I say Cast~Notably we need to identify and include both positive and negative elements of the cast as the total make up of the final product expected in my opinion. (Gary)
Gordy & Chuck Easterling on the plan:
[GH] From Chuck Easterling :
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My thought is that much more than slack removal is occurring, It is my belief that this prolonged drag is placing the rod and line under a good deal of tension while reserving casting arc to a critical moment.
Chuck
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[GH] Chuck,
Placing the rod and line under tension with DRAG, even when the rod isn't bent (because it is horizontal) is what I think is happening, too. That is in line with what I said about DRAG acting against the inertia of the fly line.
Your point about reserving the casting arc to a critical moment also makes sense to me.
Gordy
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Key point by Gordy above in my opinion. I am a great believer in maintaining tension in the fly cast.
Tension gives you control and efficiency!!!!
All the best
Gary Davison
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[GH] From Walter Simbirski:
Gordy,
Personally I find the translation/rotation thing to be quite humorous.
If we take a look a the following web page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotation and note the following line: "However, a rotation around a point or axis and a rotation around a different point/axis may result in something other than a rotation, e.g. a translation."
Unless a movement is strictly pure rotation or pure translation mathematicians usually consider it to be a combination of the two because any movement that isn't strictly one or the other can usually be defined as a combination of the two.
I think the closest we will get to casting with pure rotation only is standing in a river with a $20 bill tucked under our elbows while an instructor shouts, "one o'clock... eleven o'clock... one o'clock" in time to a metronome. The minute we add shoulder or wrist motions to that elbow movement we are out of the realm of rotation vs translation. If, like many other casting pearls of wisdom such as "line follows rod tip" and "short line short cast", concentrating on rotation only serves as a teaching tool then it's not a bad thing but we as instructors should have a deeper understanding.
Cheers
Walter
PS: Even Ally's arms aren't that long. :)
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[GH] From Bill Kiester (I added his attachment)
Gordy,
Attached is a piece addressing the importance of Drag as part of the cast. And in particular distance casts.
I would like to make some comments on Rick Hartman’s cast. First it is a great example of using hand/arm acceleration without any other multiplicative effect as I pointed out yesterday. But there is another thing that the pictures illustrate.
We all know that it is imperative to eliminate as much slack as possible before starting the cast. But we don’t think of the slack in the rod. When we start a cast with a narrow arch there is a large angle between the rod and the line. Force cannot be transmitted through a rod until significant deflection has been achieved. This deflection is slack. It decreases the effective rod arc available for the cast.
When the rod is pointed down the line the issue of initial deflection is eliminated. Hand arm acceleration can meet the acceleration needs at the beginning of the cast. The multiplicative effect of rotation is not needed at this point in the cast. Slack is never an issue because deflection is introduced after effective force is already being transmitted through the rod.
Several years ago when I was practicing for my CCI I played around with different ways to make my 75 foot cast. One thing I tried was to start with 40 feet of line on the ground in front of me. Then I made a very aggressive pickup which allowed me to shot 10 to 15 feet of line into the backcast. I would then trap the line and let the excess energy bend the rod. I would then fire the line to 75 feet. It worked because the slack in the rod was removed before I started the forward cast. This allowed me to apply force through the entire available casting arch. And, it felt cool.
Bill Keister
Bill Keister
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