Re: Compicating things

Walter,

YES on all counts.

Best,

Gordy






On Jan 31, 2012, at 11:45 AM, WALTER SIMBIRSKI wrote:

> Gordy - off the record
>  
> I'm laughing out loud at Liam's message. I'm guessing that he is in Category 2 of your 3 groups
> but you both make very good points about finding some place for the technical stuff.
>  
> You may already have heard, or will be happy to know if you haven't already heard, that there
> is a group of us who are about to launch a new web site targeting certified casters from
> any recognized organization world wide, or those who are genuinely interested in becoming
> certified casters.
>  
> We will have a discussion forum. One of the topic areas will be casting mechanics and it will
> be lead and moderated by someone with a PhD in physics and an interest in fly casting.
>  
> I was hoping that you would allow us (me) to move the archive I've been keeping from your
> discussion group to the new web site. We would also be very happy if you would like to
> participate in some way in the site.
>  
> Cheers
>  
> Walter
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gordy Hill <MasterStudyGroup@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 9:11 am
> Subject: Compicating things
> To: Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Walter & Group...
> > 
> > [GH]  As most of you are aware, the issue of how deeply to 
> > complicate the study of fly casting instruction has emerged 
> > quite often in our deliberations.  With this in mind, I 
> > send this string of messages while studying the latest entries 
> > on our distance cast issue.
> > 
> > Gordy
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH] From Walter Simbirski :
> > 
> > Gordy,
> >  
> > Ally is correct.
> >  
> > The relationship is actually E = W = Fd 
> >  
> > where W = work
> >  
> > E = Fd is a simplification that may be invalid if we are 
> > thinking only in terms of kinetic or potential energy.
> >  
> > In this case E is the change of total energy (assuming no energy 
> > losses) when we do W on an object by applying some force to it. 
> > E can be in the form of kinetic energy, i.e. I apply force to 
> > get my object moving faster, potential energy, i.e. I apply 
> > force to raise the object, or a combination of both, e.g. I 
> > throw I ball upwards then I impart kinetic energy to the ball to 
> > get it moving upwards and as it climbs it gains potential energy 
> > and loses kinetic energy. As the ball reaches it peak and then 
> > falls it begins to lose potential energy and regain kinetic 
> > energy until it impacts the ground or someone catches it.
> >  
> > In the case where there are energy losses such as heat produced 
> > due to friction, or noise created when the ball hits the ground, 
> > or displacement of air as the ball travels through the air we 
> > can estimate these energy losses by looking at the energy the 
> > ball had after we applied force over some distance.
> >  
> > Cheers
> >  
> > Walter
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH]  Liam Duffy sends this "real World of flycasting" 
> > message :
> > 
> > Gordy,
> >          Never read such a load of junk in years. Fly casting is 
> > a means to and end, how many of us would learn to cast a fly if 
> > we could "hand feed" a fish My definition(which I use at 
> > classes, workshops etc, is "placing your artificial fly where 
> > you want to and how you want to" as I tell my classes "you never 
> > saw a blue winged olive landing like a building block".
> > 
> > The fish don't read the books and couldn't give4 a fiddlers f**k 
> > about energy, transmission of energy,  loop size, both back and 
> > forwards, etc. the fish are only interested in what they see 
> > in/on the water. g out gIt appears to me that a lot of "Masters" 
> > are showing what they know without having any regards for those 
> > who are trying to obtain their Masters Cert. Looking and reading 
> > whats coming out from these master to me all they are doing is 
> > showing  what "experts" they are.  Wake up it's not about you, 
> > it's supposed to be helping guys to obtain their masters certGGS.
> > STOP COMPLICATING THINGS!!!!!
> > 
> > There is an old saying in Dublin (Ireland) "If Bull***t was 
> > music you'd be a brass band!!" STOP COMPLICATING THINGS, IT'S ABOUT
> >  FISHIN'
> > 
> > LIAM Duffy, MCI, THCI, APGAI-Ireland, AAPGAI, STANIC, MARINE & 
> > COUNTRY GUIDE, (GOVT. QUALIFICATION), WELCOME HOST (N.I)
> >  govt. qualified in:"GROUP TRAINING TECHNIQUES," train the 
> > trainer", 1st Aid instructor, qualified lifesaver, etc etc, etc, etc/
> > .
> >  I'm sick sore and tired of "experts" complicating a reasonably 
> > simply physical maneuver
> > Best Regards,
> > 
> > Liam Duffy,
> > 
> > P.S. I dare you send around to the "experts"
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > Liam,
> > 
> > I take your message seriously, so I took your dare.
> > 
> > As you know, some fine fly casters and instructors got fed up 
> > with the scientific "analysis" of what probably happens when we cast.
> > 
> > Over the years, I've concluded that casting instructors seem to 
> > belong to one of 3 groups:
> > 
> > 1. Those who don't care a fig about scientific stuff, but 
> > tolerate it during discussions. 
> > 
> > 2. Those who become dismayed that our sport is reduced by some 
> > to mathematics and physics.  (At the extreme, Mel Krieger's "poets")
> > 
> > 3. Those who feel bound to know how fly casting works down to 
> > the last scientific detail and theory.  That is their, "real 
> > World"  (Mel's, "engineers".)
> > 
> > 
> > As far as MCI education is concerned, we have often gone way 
> > beyond what is important for the candidate to know of scientific 
> > theory.  This becomes a "two edged sword".  Master candidates 
> > need to know that.
> > 
> > It has been pointed out that by doing this, we may have done a 
> > disservice to some candidates who read this complicated material 
> > and think that they will be responsible for knowing all of it on 
> > an exam.  They may avoid registering for an exam as a 
> > consequence, because they feel intimidated.
> > 
> > Many take the position that we can teach fly-casting very well 
> > without any physics whatever.  I think that is true.  Others, 
> > however, feel that the instructor is in a better position to 
> > understand the basis of casting as well as its faults using 
> > basic science to figure out how things work.  For these 
> > instructors, it makes it easier to work out the problems a 
> > student may have with casting.
> > 
> > I had considered forming another Group strictly for those who 
> > want to discuss the advanced mechanics and physics theory behind 
> > fly casting .... then I figured, this would  best be hosted 
> > by someone with a more advanced physics background than my own.
> > 
> > Since some candidates learn better and become better prepared by 
> > learning some science behind fly casting, and others do not,  I 
> > feel bound to offer both scientific material and non-technical 
> > information.  To avoid the ire of those who wish to avoid the 
> > super scientific stuff, perhaps it will be best for me to place 
> > that material in attachments which can be read or not according 
> > to the wishes of the members.
> > 
> > An attempt at balance.
> > 
> > Gordy
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >