|
Walter & Group...
[GH] Our first response to the list of questions was from Tony Loader. I made some comments in his answer text in bold italics.
Gordy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Tony Loader:
Hi Gordy,
My best guesses below.
Regards,
Tony.
[GH] I have a few questions for you based mostly on our recent messages on casting mechanics. Let's have some fun with these ...............(Beware.... I added a couple of zingers.)
1.) Which term do you prefer?, a. CASTING ARC. b. CASTING ANGLE. Casting Arc
2.) Why ? Notwithstanding that some feel that "arc" more properly denotes a curved tip path when what we are attempting to achieve is a straight line path ("SLP"), for me the term "Casting Arc" better describes the rod having moved from one angle (with reference to the vertical, say) to another. That we actually do get a somewhat curved tip path and never a true SLP, is a curious sidelight.
[GH] No right or wrong answer to this one. A matter of opinion.
3.) Can you describe what is meant by the term, "CURVILINEAR TRANSLATION" in simple language? Every point on the rod tracks a parallel path, albeit not a dead straight one, as the rod moves absent rotation.
[GH] Agree.
4.) If I apply a constant (not increasing) force to a fly rod, will it accelerate over time? Yes
[GH] Yes.
5.) What is TORQUE? Twisting force.
[GH] Yes. Good non-scientific answer.
6.) Do translation and rotation occur separately? or as contiguous events when casting? I reckon I can see a moment or two of pure translation early in this cast http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA3UDg51PW4&NR=1 but generally the two are admixed.
[GH] The cast in the link was made so fast, I couldn't be sure. I agree that the two are usually admixed. We tried to make casts with early pure translation, but could not avoid at least a small amount of rotation made at the same time.
7.) When does the movement of the rod through the CASTING ANGLE begin and end? From Rod Straight Position beginning the casting stroke ("RSP") to RSP 1 (as defined below)
[GH] Agree.
8.) What relationship must exist between the ROD BEND and the CASTING ANGLE in order to achieve a straight line path of the rod tip when casting? The casting angle must be wide enough to ensure that the rod tip, at maximum bend under acceleration, does not dip below the SLP drawn between its position at RSP and RSP1
[GH] Yes. I've been saying that the rod bend must match the casting angle ..... but your description would be better understood by students !
9.) Do you use slide loading? Yes but I prefer to call it "slide" being unconvinced about the "loading part". Maybe I'm not doing it right.
[GH] You may be doing what Paul Arden describes as the SexyLoops description of "slide" :
"I don't like the term Slide Loading, as you know. We do use a term "Slide" on Sexyloops - A form of drift where the rod is moved along the line towards the line hand.
This is not part of the Casting Stroke, but is part of the overall package. Many casters use this simply to reposition the rod without compromising the most effective haul position. It shouldn't be confused with Drag (Rod translation during the early part of a Casting Stroke) which actually pulls the line. You can turn Slide into Drag if you are a contortionist, have a very long hauling arm, or wish to start the haul from an ineffective starting point.
Cheers from a very hot Hungary.
Paul"
10.) Do you see any advantage to using it? Yes. It brings my rod hand to a more favorable position from which to commence rotation and a haul, while effectively shooting a little more line into the unrolling loop.
[GH] Others have made the same observation.
11.) Who was first to use the term, "slide loading"? I don't know of anyone before Joan Wulff
[GH] Right. (Good way to answer this kind of question .... you don't run the risk of stepping into a hole ! )
12.) We've read that a champion distance caster named Marvin Hedge first introduced the double haul to organized competition fly casting. Who taught it to him (and may well have been the person who developed it.) ? Don't know.
[GH] Another good response. Too few people do that. Guessing can get one in trouble on an oral exam. I don't know for sure, either. However, author Jack W. Berryman said that Marvin Hedge was taught the technique by Maurice Abraham. His nickname was "Mooch". In periodicals he was sometimes referred to as "Mooch Abrams". *
My grandfather used single hauls back in the twenties.... but didn't know anything, then, about double hauls. It is likely that some fly fishers may have used the double haul without calling it that.
13.) What is "PRE-LOAD"? Rod bend derived from residual momentum in the fly line as a cast unrolls
[GH] Agree.
14.) Do we have "PRE-LOAD" with most of our fishing casts? I doubt it.
[GH] Agree.
15.) Under what circumstances, if ever, is a caster likely to achieve pre-load? When deliberately trying to capture momentum from a back cast to enhance the following forward cast. Whether momentum in the opposite direction would enhance any cast is, for me, questionable.
[GH] No consensus among experts on this one. We did see the rod bend after the back cast on the video of Lasse Karlsson's cast .... but that didn't show the loop nor was I convinced that it helped his forward cast in any way. vimeo.com/11968519
The back cast loop has momentum while unfurling. I don't know if there is any rearward momentum of the fly line after the loop has fully unrolled, however.
Paul Arden sent this:
"Hi Gordy,
A couple of small thoughts on pre-load, even if it were possible to make this transition smoothly (I can't and had Mike Heritage call out Loop Straight, and when I hit this the loop failed/tailed etc), then the question is what would it actually achieve? We know rod loading is only a small function of the Casting Stoke and the most significant function is leverage. I've had lots of people tell me about pre-load but whenever I've filmed them it didn't happen. Still if someone can shoot pre-load in action I'd love to see it. "
16.) What is the definition (description) of CASTING STROKE that you favor? Rod movement to form a loop.
[GH] Well... That is about as generic as it gets. Nothing to argue about.
17.) BRIEFLY: What do you tell your students about the CASTING STROKE? "A cast is an acceleration to a stop"
[GH] Some instructors think that it is not a good idea to use the term, "acceleration" to students. I do use it for adults.... but not youngsters. I still emphasize STOP .... even though we know its a deceleration sequence.
18.) Is the path taken by the casting hand always a straight line when we achieve (almost) a straight line path of the rod tip? No
[GH] Agree.
19.) Can you load (bend) a fly rod by moving it through a casting angle without acceleration? I can't move it without acceleration
[GH] Technically, while a rod is being moved at a steady velocity (no acceleration) it won't bend or load. It is true that in order to start moving it, one goes from zero to whatever velocity is chosen which is at least brief acceleration. With CREEP, the rod movement goes from zero-to-slow with not enough acceleration to make much if any of a noticeable bend...... unless a very limber rod is used.
20.) Some well practiced casters can cast a fly line 50 feet or more when hand casting with no fly rod. How is this possible with no casting angle (casting arc)? There is translation of the "rod" hand and I suspect that there is always some rotation (of any or all of the body, shoulder, elbow or wrist) involved but most of the acceleration is derived from hauling.
[GH] Yes !
21.) What is likely to happen if we use lots of force and develop more rod bend without increasing our casting angle? A tailing loop.
[GH] Agree.
22.) What happens if we don't use enough force to develop sufficient rod bend for the amount of casting angle? A wide loop or "non-loop"
[GH] Agree.
23.) Do you ever purposely perform the exercises in 21.) and 22.) as a demonstration to your casting students? Yes
[GH] I do it also. Sometimes I find, as I coach CCI candidates, that this isn't clear to them ... so I make the point by having the candidate do it and then explain the results.
24.) When does the rod tip make its first stop?
a. At RSP 1 (First Rod straight position).
b. At RSP 2 (Second rod straight position).
c. At RSP 3 (Third rod straight position).
d. At MCP (Maximum counterflex position). MCP
e. At MRP (Maximum rebound position).
[GH] Right.
25.) What is meant by the term, DRAG? For me, drag is simultaneous translation of rod and line hands, usually with the rod essentially horizontal, immediately prior to commencement of rotation in a casting stroke. "Slide loading" without the slide.
[GH] Yes. Most often, I see a bit of rotation sneak in, so it's rarely "Pure" translation.
Gordy
* FLY FISHING PIONEERS & LEGENDS OF THE NORTHWEST, By Jack /w. Berryman, 2006, pp. 113-115
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Bill Keister. (Bill has an engineering background):
Gordy,
My answers:
1.) Which term do you prefer?, a. CASTING ARC. b. CASTING ANGLE.
CASTING ARC
2.) Why ?
An Angle is a single value. An Arc is defined by rotation from one angle to a second angle. Assigning a new meaning to a commonly understood concept in the name of fly casting description does not make sense to me.
3.) Can you describe what is meant by the term, "CURVILINEAR TRANSLATION" in simple language?
Moving along a curved line.
4.) If I apply a constant (not increasing) force to a fly rod, will it accelerate over time?
Yes. It will accelerate at a constant rate the often stated object of a good cast.
5.) What is TORQUE?
A measure of the force used to twist or rotate an object. The force used to rotate a fly rod through the casting arc.
6.) Do translation and rotation occur separately? or as contiguous events when casting?
Translation and rotation occur contiguously to varying degrees during a cast. They are used in an effort to separate components of a more complex movement.
7.) When does the movement of the rod through the CASTING ANGLE begin and end?
The casting angle is a single static condition. I will answer for a casting arc. The casting arc begins at a set rod angle when ‘meaningful force’ begins to be applied in the direction of the cast. [Prior wording required when creep is considered to occur prior to the casting stroke. If creep is considered to be a fault that occurs during the casting stroke then ‘casting arch begins at the rod angle when the rod begins movement in the direction of the cast.] Casting arc ends when the rod passes through RSP at which point it transitions from flex to counterflex.
8.) What relationship must exist between the ROD BEND and the CASTING ANGLE in order to achieve a straight line path of the rod tip when casting?
If a rod is moved slowly through the casting ARC the rod tip will follow a curved path, starting low and ending low. If a line is drawn between the start and finish the rod tip will be several feet above that line when the rod is perpendicular to the line. The essence of most overhead casts and many others is to make the rod tip follow a more nearly straight line. Therefore the rod must be progressively bent and unbent to follow the line.
9.) Do you use slide loading?
Not any more (if I understand the term).
10.) Do you see any advantage to using it?
At the risk of sacrificing distance I think it can provide a sense of additional control.
11.) Who was first to use the term, "slide loading"?
Do not know.
12.) We've read that a champion distance caster named Marvin Hedge first introduced the double haul to organized competition fly casting. Who taught it to him (and may well have been the person who developed it.) ?
Do not know.
13.) What is "PRE-LOAD"?
Pre-Load occurs when the unrolling fly line puts a ‘tug’ on the rod as it completes the unrolling process. This pre bends the rod without it being move in the direction of the next stroke.
14.) Do we have "PRE-LOAD" with most of our fishing casts?
In most casts we do not have meaningful PRE-LOAD.
15.) Under what circumstances, if ever, is a caster likely to achieve pre-load?
Pre-load can be achieved by overpowering a casting stroke for the amount of line being cast. The line is shot into the cast but it is trapped (stopped) prior to the fly line completely unrolling. The amount of inertia left in the fly line at the moment of trapping the line determines the amount of pre loading.
16.) What is the definition (description) of CASTING STROKE that you favor?
CASTING STROKE is the total movement of the fly rod made to as part of the cast. It consists of rotation and translation.
17.) BRIEFLY: What do you tell your students about the CASTING STROKE?
I tell beginners that the movements they make with the fly rod to propel the fly line in one direction is the casting stroke.
18.) Is the path taken by the casting hand always a straight line when we achieve (almost) a straight line path of the rod tip?
Using the framework from question 8) bending of the rod does not typically accomplish enough bend to keep the rod tip near the straight line. Casters subconsciously start the casting stroke higher (closer to the SLP). Drop their hand to a low point midway through the casting arc (in a curvilinear path). On line distance cast they may then raise the hands in a poke that allows the rod tip to follow the cast on the SLP and provide some additional thrust. The dropping of the hand is also a function of the rotation of the forearm around the elbow a serendipitous occurrence.
19.) Can you load (bend) a fly rod by moving it through a casting angle without acceleration?
No. Remember a fly line has very little mass (which is 1/32nd of its weight). What you feel as “weight” of the line is the acceleration. The faster you go (accelerate) the more resistance you feel.
20.) Some well practiced casters can cast a fly line 50 feet or more when hand casting with no fly rod. How is this possible with no casting angle (casting arc)?
They are throwing the fly line. They are also hauling with their line hand. Most people can throw a baseball 50 to 60 miles per hour or more. That is about the speed of fly line during a slow easy cast. In the few times I have attempted casting a fly line hand what I found disconcerting was the lack of resistance. When you compare the resistance of the fly line to the resistance of a baseball you get an appreciation fore just how little force is being applied to a fly line.
21.) What is likely to happen if we use lots of force and develop more rod bend without increasing our casting angle?
The rod tip will dip below the SLP. We generally then ‘run out of arm’ and the rod unbends raising the rod tip to or above the SLP. TAILING LOOP. If you are able to maintain the acceleration and/or direct the rod tip downward you may not tail but you may have an unintended trajectory on the forward cast.
22.) What happens if we don't use enough force to develop sufficient rod bend for the amount of casting angle?
The rod tip moves above the SLP and we are likely to throw a large loop.
23.) Do you ever purposely perform the exercises in 21.) and 22.) as a demonstration to your casting students?
Yes.
24.) When does the rod tip make its first stop?
a. At RSP 1 (First Rod straight position).
b. At RSP 2 (Second rod straight position).
c. At RSP 3 (Third rod straight position).
d. At MCP (Maximum counterflex position).
e. At MRP (Maximum rebound position).
d. MCP
25.) What is meant by the term, DRAG?
DRAG, I hate that term. To me it connotes a crude or uncontrolled movement. I prefer DRAW. By whatever name it is a motion in the beginning of the stroke predominated by translation. In this stroke initial movement is provided by the direct motion of the body and arm. The multiplicative effect of rotating the rod is saved until the later portion of the cast when it is needed to keep up with the speed which has been generated by the earlier portion of the stroke.
Bill
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>From Alan Kato:
Hi Gordy,
Happy 4th to you.
Alan D. Kato AIA LEED AP
On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:29 AM, "Gordy" <hillshead305@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Alan Kato & Group...
[GH] I have a few questions for you based mostly on our recent messages on casting mechanics. Let's have some fun with these ...............(Beware.... I added a couple of zingers.)
1.) Which term do you prefer?, a. CASTING ARC. b. CASTING ANGLE.
2.) Why ? Either is good. The definition of casting arc is a portion of a circle or curved line.
3.) Can you describe what is meant by the term, "CURVILINEAR TRANSLATION" in simple language? Curvilinear translation is the non linear movement of an object.
4.) If I apply a constant (not increasing) force to a fly rod, will it accelerate over time? Yes
5.) What is TORQUE? Torque is a twisting force about an axis.
6.) Do translation and rotation occur separately? or as contiguous events when casting? As Mark Surtees corrected me, they co-occur. In theory we could have pure translation (drag) then rotation. Gordy, I recall you stated that this is really difficult or impossible.
7.) When does the movement of the rod through the CASTING ANGLE begin and end? The casting angle is the angular difference of the rod from the start of the stroke to the end of the stroke. Therefore it is from the beginning to the end of the stroke.
8.) What relationship must exist between the ROD BEND and the CASTING ANGLE in order to achieve a straight line path of the rod tip when casting? A given rod load, amount of power applied, and action of the rod, creates a particular rod bend. The caster adjusts the casting angle to achieve a straight line tip path. Small rod bend shorter casting angle, Large rod bend longer casting angle.
9.) Do you use slide loading? Yes, I discovered I did use a slight amount of slide loading by video taping my 85' cast and using Ubersense (an iPad slow motion video app). I found for me that more slide loading can become creep motion. BTW Ubersense is free and is a good tool to analyze sports movement.
10.) Do you see any advantage to using it? Right now I feel it loads the rod better at delayed rotation. Without slide loading my translation movement at the beginning of the forward stroke does not accelerate enough to smoothly join a delayed rotation. I have no proof, it just feels right.
11.) Who was first to use the term, "slide loading"? I believe it was first popularized in Joan Wulff's books such as Fly Casting Techniques.
12.) We've read that a champion distance caster named Marvin Hedge first introduced the double haul to organized competition fly casting. Who taught it to him (and may well have been the person who developed it.) ? Fly casting forum says Jim Green recalled Marvin Hedges said he first saw it on a river. Jack Sparks a casting champion and journalist said it was used by San Francisco fly fishermen in the 20's.
13.) What is "PRE-LOAD"? I'm not sure. I think of it as the loading of the rod before the beginning of the casting stroke. For example backward momentum of the fly line will "pull" the rod before the casting stroke.
14.) Do we have "PRE-LOAD" with most of our fishing casts? Probably because we do not always match our power to the cast. We do not have the luxury of countless false casts to fine tune the casting motion. In fishing we want to quickly control the cast around, above or below obstacles and tend to use more power. Spey casts and water hauls can pre load the rod.
15.) Under what circumstances, if ever, is a caster likely to achieve pre-load? An overpowered b/c, water hauls, Spey casts, perhaps windy conditions, when practicing, grass hauls give me great rod loading.
16.) What is the definition (description) of CASTING STROKE that you favor? I define the casting stroke as the total motion of the hand from the beginning to the end of the cast. I think drifting and follow through are part of the stroke.
17.) BRIEFLY: What do you tell your students about the CASTING STROKE? I tell the students they need to relate their casting stroke to the resulting cast and line layout. They are in control of their cast through the casting stroke.
18.) Is the path taken by the casting hand always a straight line when we achieve (almost) a straight line path of the rod tip? No not always. We adjust the hand path depending on the cast. Long casts have a straighter hand path than short casts.
19.) Can you load (bend) a fly rod by moving it through a casting angle without acceleration? I don't believe so. Moving a stationary fly rod requires acceleration.
20.) Some well practiced casters can cast a fly line 50 feet or more when hand casting with no fly rod. How is this possible with no casting angle (casting arc)? They are using a multiplied haul, by using their forward hand sliding the line through it like a rod tip, and hauling the line hand. This generates line speed.
21.) What is likely to happen if we use lots of force and develop more rod bend without increasing our casting angle? Tailing loops
22.) What happens if we don't use enough force to develop sufficient rod bend for the amount of casting angle? Open loops
23.) Do you ever purposely perform the exercises in 21.) and 22.) as a demonstration to your casting students? Yes always. The students should learn to relate tip path with loop shapes.
24.) When does the rod tip make its first stop?
a. At RSP 1 (First Rod straight position).
b. At RSP 2 (Second rod straight position).
c. At RSP 3 (Third rod straight position).
d. At MCP (Maximum counterflex position). The first stop is here.
e. At MRP (Maximum rebound position).
25.) What is meant by the term, DRAG? Drag is the translation movement of the rod in the direction of the casting stroke. In a perfect world drag does not take away from the available casting angle.
Gordy
Thanks,
Alan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To be removed from this mailing list, please click here to unsubscribe
|