Re: "Does the line always follow the rod tip" ?

Walter,

In his early retirement years, Ally teaches fly casting .... lots of Spey casting as well as straight line casting in Scotland.  He's an FFF Master and officer in AAPGAI.

He worked for many years as an engineer for water works projects in the UK.  Ally has been a student of physics.  His son is a PhD physicist at a university level working here in the U.S.A.

Gordy


On Nov 17, 2011, at 10:49 AM, WALTER SIMBIRSKI wrote:

> Hi Gordy,
>  
> I'm not sure what Ally's background is but he seems to have a good grasp of engineering principles and is able to provide excellent insights without going all techy. His idea of looking at multiple centers of
> mass forms the basis of finite element analysis - basically breaking up a continuous system that would
> require extremely complex mathematics to solve (if it could be solved) into a finite number of elements
> that interact. The analysis of the individual elements, if properly chosen, is greatly simplified and then the
> interactions can be treated as a seperate analysis. This forms the basis for much of the computer generated
> modelling we see these days.
>  
> This is indeed cool stuff.
>  
> Walter
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gordy Hill <MasterStudyGroup@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Thursday, November 17, 2011 8:16 am
> Subject: Re: "Does the line always follow the rod tip" ?
> To: WALTER SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
> 
> > Walter,
> > 
> > I agree.
> > 
> > Tomorrow you will see that this is just what Ally Gowans did in 
> > his analysis.  He looked at the bead chain as multiple 
> > centers of mass.
> > 
> > Gary Eaton will then (on the following day) come in with his own 
> > voluminous explanations which i will, then, have fun reducing to 
> > utter brevity.  I'll do as I sometimes do as an expert 
> > witness in court.... give short answers purposely designed to 
> > lead the lawyer to ask for more detail.  Sometimes detail 
> > he doesn't want the jury to hear !
> > 
> > I love this stuff.
> > 
> > Hope you are feeling up to snuff and doing well.
> > 
> > You didn't miss my B'day .... it is on Nov. 22nd.
> > 
> > Pris and I send our best to Susan, Laura, and you.
> > 
> > Gordy
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Nov 16, 2011, at 2:49 PM, WALTER SIMBIRSKI wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi Gordy,
> > >  
> > > I'm going to hold off on lengthy discussion but to better 
> > understand Aitor's demo I find it helps to think of where the center
> > > of mass of the line is and the forces applied to the line 
> > relative to that center of mass. 
> > >  
> > > The idea that the line follows the rod tip isn't completely 
> > wrong, and it is a good teaching tool for beginners, but it is a 
> > huge oversimplification
> > > and anybody at the certification level should understand that.
> > >  
> > > Cheers
> > >  
> > > Walter
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Gordy Hill <MasterStudyGroup@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 4:12 am
> > > Subject: "Does the line always follow the rod tip" ?
> > > To: Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Walter & Group....
> > > > 
> > > > [GH]  From Aitor Coteron on the subject of whether the 
> > fly 
> > > > line always follows the path of the rod tip (I, also, placed 
> > > > this Vimeo video by Aitor in an attachment.)
> > > > 
> > > > The comments which are below the video are also quite 
> > > > instructive :
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Hi Gordy,
> > > > 
> > > > The line goes where the rod tip goes... only when the whole 
> > > > length of the line is aligned with the trajectory of the rod 
> > > > tip. It is explained here:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > http://vimeo.com/aitorc/does-the-line-follow-the-rod-tip
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Aitor
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> > 
> > > > [GH]  From Mac Brown (I added the reference * and 
> > > > highlighted his question in italics) :
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I do think the issue of curves in depth is understood by 
> > few. 
> > > > When teaching I find that breaking all the various curve 
> > methods 
> > > > down into either acceleration  (positive and negative) 
> > of loop 
> > > > planes and/or transverse waves. Both of these enable loop 
> > planes 
> > > > to be altered in all air space around the rod tip (I am sure 
> > > > this has been well explained over the years).  
> > > > 
> > > > The next topic of line following the rod tip is another 
> > > > antiquated belief because I personally feel it is far too 
> > vague -
> > > > and downright wrong!  I am sure if Mr. Newton was 
> > around still 
> > > > he would find problem with it as well or he would have used 
> > it 
> > > > somehow into his mechanics. This was one of the reasons I 
> > > > defined loops into 2 distinct forms in the late 80's fly and 
> > rod 
> > > > leg (actually main and end line -same concept). It 
> > astonished me 
> > > > back then that 500 years of history in our sport no one even 
> > > > broke the loop down to discuss it! The internet forums and 
> > this 
> > > > group Gordy have assisted in making tremendous advances 
> > during 
> > > > the last decade with fly casting. I applaud the time you 
> > freely 
> > > > give to help manage such a great resource for sharing these 
> > > > ideas! One could argue that one finite section of line right 
> > at 
> > > > the tip top eyelet is the only point that does(without 
> > shooting 
> > > > line) follow the rod tip. The direction of line in itself is 
> > > > even to vague overall so perhaps studying overall line 
> > layout 
> > > > (more common for presentation) should be the focus. The 
> > overall 
> > > > positioning of the fly line is the summation of various 
> > > > momentum's during and/or after the casting stroke. 
> > Alterations 
> > > > during the casting stroke tend to effect the fly leg of the 
> > loop 
> > > > while those done after the stop tend to effect the rod leg 
> > of 
> > > > the loop. These often times blend together for overall casts 
> > > > where it becomes very difficult to tell where the separation 
> > is 
> > > > even with use of high speed film. The one thing that remains 
> > > > common with both is that they both produce a wave.
> > > > 
> > > > Another book Gordy that I think would help all MCI 
> > candidates is 
> > > > Al Buhr's book. I know it is spey oriented but I think the 
> > spey 
> > > > and single handed rod are one in the same thing. They are 
> > > > fishing casts. In it, Al has some excellent Rules in the 
> > opening 
> > > > pages which I think would benefit any caster. The reason I 
> > > > mention it here is that the science of mechanics actually 
> > back 
> > > > up some sound advice for assisting those on a journey in fly 
> > > > casting. I think this remains a lifelong journey too! They 
> > will 
> > > > slap some traditional beliefs in the face but will assist 
> > those 
> > > > in questioning why particular casts react to modified 
> > > > accelerations which deviate from straight often times on the 
> > > > water. *
> > > > 
> > > > I enjoyed your post in regards to building on the foundation 
> > > > pillars of tradition as well- but during this journey we 
> > also 
> > > > have to maintain reality from fiction which can be tricky at 
> > > > times. I think the journey remains more enjoyable to me 
> > > > personally to view casting as an art form that constantly 
> > > > changes. This being very close to an improvisational player 
> > of 
> > > > whatever music one enjoys!
> > > > 
> > > > I think most all the waves come from a wrist shiver either 
> > > > during, right at the stop, and/or after the casting stroke 
> > to 
> > > > produce the transverse waves. The amount of curve using 
> > these 
> > > > depends on the acceleration one uses to make them occur. 
> > Here is 
> > > > an interesting exercise I used in Helen at the SE conclave 
> > for a 
> > > > class. I will draw the casting stroke with keyboard. For 
> > this 
> > > > exercise say you use a vertical rod plane and vertical loop 
> > > > plane right over the top.
> > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > !     The rod is accelerating toward the 
> > top in diagram and then 
> > > > the little out (>) move occurs. This move can be before, 
> > during, 
> > > > or after the stop. 
> > > > !
> > > > 
> > > > So the question to the group for this exercise is how can 
> > the 
> > > > same motion described above with the keystrokes yield 2 
> > totally 
> > > > different line layouts with curves landing to the left or 
> > the 
> > > > right at will??
> > > > 
> > > > I find this cast useful on the water for whenever we desire 
> > a 
> > > > curve. They also offer many benefits over manipulation of 
> > > > positive and negative cast for dealing with wind, different 
> > > > obstacles, etc... The aerial mends on the new MCI test are 
> > also 
> > > > congruent with the subtle wrist shiver occurring close to 
> > the 
> > > > stop of the cast (great line control exercise too!).
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Have a good weekend! Cheers
> > > >  
> > > > Mac Brown
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > * TWO-HANDED FLY CASTING Spey Casting Techniques by Al Buhr, 2006
> > > >    ISBN 1-57188-395-9
> > > > 
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > 
> > > > [GH]  Mac,
> > > > 
> > > > You have posed the second key question !  Can't wait to 
> > see 
> > > > the results.
> > > > 
> > > > There is, I feel, a place for the use of some "near truths" 
> > as 
> > > > we teach new casters.  The "STOP" is one of them.  
> > Not 
> > > > exactly what happens, but gets into student's brains and 
> > results 
> > > > in them casting more efficiently.  Another is the 
> > > > statement, "THE LINE FOLLOWS THE ROD TIP....".  
> > Probably 
> > > > not something that always happens..... but useful as a 
> > teaching 
> > > > concept until we get into very advanced casting.  Same 
> > with 
> > > > the "STRAIGHT LINE PATH OF THE ROD TIP FOR A SMALL LOOP" 
> > > > dictum.  "True" at one level, yet not strictly so at another.
> > > > 
> > > > Fits in line with some useful direct teaching methods .... 
> > such 
> > > > as one which Lefty Kreh so effectively uses as he instructs 
> > a 
> > > > student to "try to hit your rod tip with your line".  
> > Of 
> > > > course, it isn't going to happen, but that student often 
> > gets 
> > > > the smallest loop of his casting life !
> > > > 
> > > 
> > >                                                                  SO -
> > > > 
> > > > Questions :
> > > > 
> > > > 1.  Does the line always follow the rod tip ?
> > > > 
> > > > 2.  How can the same motion described above with the 
> > > > keystrokes yield 2 totally different line layouts with 
> > curves 
> > > > landing to the left or the right at will??
> > > > 
> > > > 3.  When we make a snap cast, the line suddenly goes in 
> > the 
> > > > opposite direction to that of the last movement of the rod 
> > > > tip.  How does that happen ?
> > > > 
> > > > Gordy
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > 
> >