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Walter & Group.....
[GH] Hot button issues like this generate many messages. To be certain no one's opinion is ignored, I have included every entry I've received.
[GH] From Guy Manning, (Italics and quotation marks are mine) :
"[GH] From Michael Jones :
To answer Guy Manning's question, I intended: 3 fly line 'core' (the middle of the line) characteristics. The most obvious to me would be: Strength, Stretch, Stiffness. We can all take a stab at explaining these characteristics, or maybe other examples would be good answers as well."
My answer would have been:
Material – mono, braided mono, braided multifilament etc. = stiffness
Weave – steep or shallow weave = stretch
Strength
For the question we would not be able to use “the middle of the line” because we don’t know if the question is asking about the middle of the length or the center. We would probably have to ask for 3 characteristics of the center core of a fly line. This is an example of how we can sometimes spend weeks on a single question.
Guy Manning
FFF Certified, Master Casting Instructor
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[GH] Guy,
Point well taken. As you know, we have sometimes taken weeks of daily discussions in our testing committees over fairness and/or clarity with the use of even a single word !
Attention to detail has risen "light years" ahead of what it was with testing committees of several years past.
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[GH] Michael Jones comments on Elie Beerten's suggestions from our last message :
Gordy:
This has some real merit: Why not give the questions written down on a paper just before the oral examination and give the candidate an hour or more to prepare himself. After this hour you start the oral examination. I think it can be a benefit for both parties, candidate and examiner. The first is having some time to review the questions on a relaxed way and write down short answers, make some drawings and formulate keywords for long answers. This piece of paper can be used by the candidate as a backup during the oral examination.
The examiners can do the same exercise when the choose the questions and define the answers they would like to hear from the candidate. This will put the examiners on the same line and help them to do an objective evaluation. Afterwards this piece of paper (or both papers) can be used for a feedback to the candidate.
Actually kind this of approach is already in use for the practical test. Of each test it is described what is expected and how it is evaluated by the examiners.
It is up to skills of the examiners to ask the right additional questions to guide the candidate to the answers they would like to hear.
This could even be 15 minutes prior to the exam, locked in solitary confinement (no notes/books). Going into the exam room, the candidate is offered the opportunity to clarify the questions, then the exam begins on-schedule. That would have served me a great deal.
As far as Gary Eaton's mention of lawsuit, I think it would take almost physical violence or blatant negligence to put a solid legal claim for damages through a court regarding an FFF test gone awry. I will say this: I drove 18 hours, paid for an expensive hotel room, studied for months & years, bought over 20 books, 7 videos, and still feet that the testers cost me my chance at passing by virtue of their disregard for fairness, and abuse of power.
At the time, I could have been persuaded to advocate for my loss(es); but that was the old FFF, and I like to believe that things are on the up-and-up (sincerely).
I think Gordy is advocating for everyone by allowing and contributing to this topic thread, and I appreciate these issues being given a forum to be shared and analyzed by all.
MJ
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[GH] Michael...
Each of us has his own bias and opinions on this and other topics. I have mine, just as you have yours. I really do try, however, to keep an open mind on controversial subjects and to give any who wish an opportunity to to voice opinions.
We also need be aware that these opinions are being read and considered by several of our CBOG members. They do not fall upon "deaf ears".
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[GH] From Peter Morse :
It tells you quite clearly in the MCI study guide what to expect in the oral exam - very wide ranging questions from rod construction, all about fly lines, to what you have in your fly fishing library and what you might think of the views of the authors on various subjects, to how to teach and what flies you might need for a spring creek and so on. The oral exam should be as diverse as fly fishing itself, and as Mel said a long time ago in that great story "There are no absolutes in fly fishing". Present that information to a judge and it won't go anywhere.
If this becomes a written exam it becomes an exercise that is confined within the written absolutes of that exam. Trying to render fly fishing down into absolutes makes the sport so dry it'll become dusty.
How does it fairly account for a candidate who has never fly fished for trout (and there's a lot of them in the world) - and vice versa? I'm pretty sure its going to be loaded with trout fishing questions so a candidate whose fly fishing life has been in the saltwater is just as prejudiced against and might be just as likely to sue the FFF as someone who feels the oral questions they were asked were unfair or inconsistent with their knowledge. A very clear outline of the range of questions to expect in the orals would cover any vexatious litigation as would extensive training of examiners and a pairing of examiners so there is a diversity of experience. The suggestion that someone cannot sit the exam without extensive logged pre-testing is a very good one
There are so many better solutions than confining the exams to a written test.
Peter
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[GH] From Ted Warren :
Gordy,
Is there some general expectation of the ratio of MCI's to CCI's by the BOG? If so, what is it and what is the current ratio? If we're at a good ratio, is that an indicator the testing procedures are producing the desired results and they're OK?
If the desired result is more than some number of MCI's, say continuing education, then Gary Eaton's comments become quite relevant. Continuing education defines specific skill and knowledge results that are desired, teaches and trains folks to master those skills & knowledge, and tests them specifically on achievement of those skills and knowledge. As a newcomer, I do see how the MCI materials do an adequate job of this in the performance skills area. However, based upon the group comments and what's provided by the FFF, I do not think they are adequate in the knowledge area because they do not inform the candidate what he specifically needs to know and we do not provide a specific program to teach that information. A professional program should also have qualified and trained examiners who don't ask questions out of the blue the candidate has not been told to prepare for and for which there is no educational material available. Examinations, written or oral, should stick to the material that has been designated as required for each level of competency.
On another line, how successful has the certification program been in growing the sport of fly fishing? Is that important? If so, how can/should we measure it?
Maybe I should first ask, what are the objectives of the certification program and how are they measured annually so we know how we're doing and if we need to make changes.
See you next week in W. Yellowstone.
Ted
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[GH] Ted:
I'll try to get the ratio and statistics on numbers of CCI's and MCI's after the Conclave. At the moment the FFF office personnel are much to busy for me to ask them to dig them out for us.
I will say, that I am not aware of any disproportionate numbers, however.
Gary Eaton's comments are always relevant. He has given lots of time and energy into his thoughts as a devoted Master.
My own opinion is that we need to intensify our meager efforts at training CCI Candidates. We have made efforts to come up with CCI Study Guide similar to what we have for Master Candidates .... but nave not yet completed the process. The Master Study Guide, as you probably know, is extensive even to the list of sample questions on the five topics to be covered during the oral exam. The full edition contains key articles for study not otherwise easy to find.
Having said all that, I'd like to point out that I feel a true Master candidate should apply that study material to years of personal fly casting, fly fishing, reading and teaching experience already acquired even after having become a CCI. Some of the material must be gained by actual experience teaching...... things like items in an instructor's personal "bag of teaching tricks". They are gained by trial and error, serendipitous success and individual expertise as well as by personal communication with other experienced instructors.
MCI candidates have also gained information by attending workshops and sessions on fly casting and teaching at conclaves and/or council meetings. Still others have spent many hours teaching in fly casting schools or individually with experienced senior instructors.
Sometimes I learn new things like this from the very candidates I'm examining !
I think the worst thing we could do would be to have a program which would quickly feed information to the candidate with the expectation that it would be returned to us as memorized facts on an exam be it written or oral.
Gordy
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