Task 6 Discussion 3

Walter & Group...

[GH] I have included an attachment. This contains a very detailed message on loop formation when roll casting from Gary Eaton.

```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

[GH] From Bernd Ziesche :

Hello Gordy,

Some thoughts on Task 6:

When reading "a normal roll cast..." this first made me think of what an "abnormal" roll cast would be. A lot of instructors in Europe use the terms: "static roll cast" or "jump roll (switch) cast" instead.

In my book the main difference between the static roll cast and the "jump roll" / "Switch" cast is:

Pulling back the line into the D without loosing steady contact between the line and the water surface. So the anker will always be there during the back "slide".

I personally think it's good to make a stop followed by a significant pause when teaching a static roll cast. This helps the student to see what exactly we are doing and it leaves space to explain important key factors. Works well.

I had quiet a few discussions about the roll cast being more easy to perform/teach on the water instead of grass. You wrote water could be a real problem with most of our testing venues. I would like to add: This is the same with most of our teaching venues, too - isn't it? So I wouldn't want to change the testing procedure here.

Water may give perfect adhesion compared to grass. And grass avoids the line from sliding towards the tip after stopping the rod (which might end up in slack). I think a good instructor would know what to optimize in both situations to teach the cast in a good way.

Some examiners/candidates like to stick up the end of the leader on the grass or make the candidate using the "roll cast tool". When using one of these methods I realized some "insecurity" about where to stick up the end of the leader.

Usually I would lay out the distance to the target (put the fly at the target). This should be done with the rod down (like it would be after the delivery). Then pull the rod back to the stop. Now stick up the end of the leader. If you use the roll cast tool the fly will reach the target (on a good cast). If you fix the end of the leader by a key (or something else) you have to imagine the last unrolling which I think is fine, too.

If a candidate chooses a short belly and wants to shoot the distance this last procedure may get a little more difficult to judge but still possible?!

All in all in my opinion it should be clearly defined what this task is asking for. In my understanding it "should be" about a static roll cast. Line doesn't leave water during the back slide followed by a clear stop (significant pause included).

Best

Bernd

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[GH] Bernd,

Here in North America we also sometimes use the terms, "static roll cast" and "Jump roll cast", too.

Gets a little cloudy when we consider that the static roll cast can mean that both rod and back loop are fully stopped... OR... that the rod has stopped but there is still a bit of rearward momentum of the back loop.

The term "jump roll cast" is sometimes used to denote a roll cast with an active (moving) D-loop as distinguished from the switch cast in that the latter includes a lift with separate placement of the anchor. ( Lift and set ) *

Some even use the term, "Forward Spey" for the switch cast intending to indicate that it is a Spey cast without change of direction.

I think we need a clearer description for task 6 when performed on grass :

The problem comes if we ask the candidate to make the roll cast set-up exactly as for casting on water even though it is being performed on grass.

We can allow him to first make a cast to the required distance OR to simply judge the amount of line to be shaken out of the rod for that distance. Or we can elect to do it by laying out line to the target.

Then the candidate must show where he would place the anchor and indicate where the roll cast tool (or standing on the leader) is to be. For maximum efficiency, this will not be where one would best place it when casting on water.

One way of doing that would be to first ask the candidate to demonstrate the set-up exactly as though it were to be done on water. THAN set it up as for grass, and make the cast.

Using the short belly line for the roll cast tasks and then shooting line certainly can be done, but I'd strongly suggest a line with a long belly. Why ? Because with the stress of an exam, it's too easy for the candidate to end up trying to load the rod with some running line in the D loop. (As Tom White used to say, "Skinny line won't turn over fat line".)

Gordy

* TWO-HANDED FLY CASTING Spey Casting Techniques, by Al Buhr, 2006, pp. 20 - 23.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[GH] Bernd Ziesche follows with a second message, which is also aimed at Dusty Sprague :

Hello Gordy (hello Dusty),

"The back loop may have rearward momentum at the time the forward cast is begun. The back loop shall not exceed one rod length."

Measured from which point - rod tip?

If so this would make a huge difference between this task being performed on grass or water in my understanding!!!

Grass: Using the artificial anchor device will make it a static roll cast as I understand it.

Water: One may use a dynamic roll cast - not a jump roll (switch) cast but still dynamic.

No big deal to take some allowances into account when being on the grass based on how it was.

But allowing (in case of some examiners* asking for) two different casts - was this taken into account when discussing the wording this way?

*I have seen examiners working with a "split tool" on the exams. The leader is fixed into the split and will come free on the forward cast. You probably all know this tool... Using this tool in my book would make the cast much different from a dynamic roll cast on water. Different by name and definition.

If we ask for a static roll cast - it can be static on water, on grass and with or without any helpful tools... Always the same cast-

Greets

Bernd

----- original Nachricht --------

Betreff: Task 6 Discussion 2

Gesendet: Mo, 28. Feb 2011

Von: Gordy Hill

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[GH] Bernd,

Let's ask Dusty to comment at this point.

RE: The "split tool". I came up with that little device about 10 years ago. I don't claim to have invented it, for others may have had the same idea. For those who have not seen or used it, one version is a 3" piece of ordinary 3/4" dia. (or 1/2" ) PVC pipe with a spike on one end to place in the turf and a fine "split" or cut made in the other with a very fine saw. The spike is thrust into the ground and the leader placed in the split with the fly on the side opposite the caster. Makes a great roll cast tool.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[GH] From Rick Brown :

Gordy, here is a simple question concerning the roll cast and the distance. The CCI test says ''line hand only'' and the Masters doesn't, not that it makes any difference. You cannot haul on either, so it essentially the same task with 10 feet added.

But, if find it easy (using line hand only) to trap around 10 feet line with my rod hand and shot that into the cast. Allowable or not, I don't know but apparently not against the rules.

So what the Masters think about this?

best, Rick

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[GH] Rick,

The term "line hand only" means that the candidate may not hold the line with the line hand at all. The terms, "No hauling" and "No hauling allowed" mean that the candidate may hold the line in the line hand but not execute a haul. (I know you knew that.)

The interpretation of those terms is the same for both exams.

To perform the task by holding the line to the cork grip with your rod hand would be a good way to do it, as I see it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[GH] From Peter Lami :

Gordy and Dusty,

I think Guy has a good point. :-)

Peter

On Feb 28, 2011, at 8:30 AM, Guy Manning wrote:

"As for including a switch cast in the MCI test I say go ahead. The CI test requires a dead line cast and the MCI would have already proven they could perform it. So a switch cast should be allowed at the MCI level. I think some on the testing committee want to keep tasks too similar than they need to be between the 2 levels."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[GH] Peter,

I agree with you and Guy.

I'm reasonably sure that the MCI Testing Committee will offer a separate switch cast task on the new proposed exam.

The standard roll cast ("normal" roll cast) task, I think, should remain as well whether or not an active D loop is allowed .

As I stated earlier, the active loop roll cast should be clearly distinguished from the switch cast by virtue of the need for "lift and set" for placement of the anchor. To be more specific, with the switch cast the fly leaves the water, then alights on the water as a "splash and go" anchor (Simon Gawesworth's wording) * Another difference (for testing) between the two is the allowed size of the D loop.

* SPEY CASTING by Simon Gawesworth, 2004, pp. 51 - 66.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[GH] I no sooner finished typing the note, above, when this came in from Dusty Sprague :

A switch cast has been included in the upcoming revision....

Dusty

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~