Task 12 Discussion 10

Walter & Group...

[GH] From Michael Gallart :

GH,

Am I too late to add that when teaching a new caster the double haul, teaching the single haul first might be a benefit.

Michael

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[GH]  From Walter Simbirski :

Gordy,

 

Again, excellent discussions!

 

I think the idea of when to start the haul is well understood and that is "It depends". Bruce certainly gave one of the best answers in that

we want the peak addition to line speed from the line hand to coincide with peak tip speed, i.e. peak hauling speed at the same time

as peak tip speed = peak line speed. Any other timing results in loss of line speed. Many factors will determine when the best time to

start hauling will result in the optimal timing to achieve peak line speed and Steve Rajeff gave a more detailed synopsis of these factors

than I could hope to so I won't try to. :)

 

The question of when to stop hauling is a bit different.

 

Similar to throwing a javelin, we release the javelin at the instant of peak hand speed but we do not stop the throwing hand, we follow

through. Another analogy is hitting a baseball or a golf ball. We want the bat or club to connect with the ball at the instant of peak bat

or club speed but we don't stop the bat or club at the moment of impact, we allow them to follow through. We know from throwing and

hitting sports that following through is essential to achieving peak speed at the desired instant in time.

 

This may cause some to ask, "Then why don't I follow through with the rod hand?" This is because we are taking advantage of rod

unloading with the rod hand. This also gives us a clue as to when we should be timing peak hauling speed and that will be at RSP or

very near to it. As Bruce also pointed out hauling will delay our rod unload and we must take this in to account when hauling. I often

hear people say that they cast exactly the same distance with and without a haul. I also find this to be the case in my own casting

when I practice casting for several sessions without hauling for distance. I don't take in to account the delay in rod unloading

due to my haul and as a result the haul does nothing to increase line speed and doesn't give me improved distance.

 

Of course this brings up the concept of the 170 or stopless cast rather than stopping the rod but I think I'll quit while I'm ahead (I hope).

 

Cheers

 

Walter

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[GH] Walter,

Great description.  The "170 cast" * as well as other specialty casts such as the "Thrust cast"**  will make good topics at another time.  Neither would be appropriate for Task 12 .

* A distance cast employing about 170 degrees of casting arc.

**  PRESENTATION by Gary Borger, 1995, pp. 239-241 (Gary acknowledges that this was shown to him by Lefty Kreh who called it his "wind cast").

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[GH]  More haul teaching methods from Mac  Brown :

Gordy,

A few more ideas on hauling that work well with students. The key for me when teaching the haul comes about from having many other methods that simplify the concept. 

I often stick the rod butt against the belly button and rotate at the torso in a near horizontal rod plane. I have used this method for about 30 years now and I think it is the most effective. Using 30-50 feet of line flies easily all from the line hand. 

I also use the snap to emphasize that the reduction of mass to create a loop requires less effort than powering a lever to form a loop. This can be done with a line, rope, whatever type of string on the ground too! The explanation of this is important for students to grasp I think. A brief explanation on the various benefits are also included during this time if needed (which typically are 95% of the time). 

Another is to have a longer line laid out straight on the ground and have them launch a single cast to the opposite direction with proper haul timing (this may also include shooting line). 

Another great method for teaching it without a rod includes the use of a rubber band. I learned this one from Wanda Taylor many years ago which I think it is quite effective. She used this method actually to teach it to someone when flying at 30,000 feet. It uses the index finger from both hands which represent the rod and the other the line hand. 

Many advanced casters stop with the ideology of the down /up method. I do think it is effective for a group of newbies. The tension differences on the line become very important with what the rod hand does. The idea of trying to maintain a constant tension for the line at all times can really only occur if the caster uses slide for both the forward and back casts. That is what all of the Bahamean guides do naturally. It is very different than the down and up haulers. It depends on the stroke length used as to how much the caster chooses to use drift, drag, and slide. Slide does not alter an increase or decrease in line tension. Drag is often misunderstood I think as well in that many claim it adds momentum for the line-this is only true once the rod hand travels past the line hand (hence it really decreases line tension until it travels past the hauling hand).

 So now then the smoothness factor of casting becomes more strained whenever we increase / decrease tension. The more I think and re-think hauling over the years the more I believe that most of the masses cast with what I refer to as yo/yo tension. We increase it, we lost it, time to gain it back kind of a thing. Much easier to learn to play with a more constant tension that varies with tempo overall. 

Hope that makes some type of sense Gordy ! It is much easier to demo this and the point can be quickly emphasized. Nice topic! 

Mac Brown

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[GH]  Mac,

Makes good sense.  Of course it would be much better to actually see these methods in use.

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[GH]  From Gary Eaton.  He clarifies his use of the term, "drift".  I highlighted his first paragraph in red :

Gordy.

 

I am not describing "drag" in this scenario. This is the DRIFT into the unrolling loop that I see as important to achieving repeteable  symmetry  in serial false casts -

I really meant the traditional description of "drift' as movement into the unrolling loop. The opposite of creep. Below a snippet from a thread I wrote for the forum I co-moderate on the subject of drift. I borrowed heavily from existing literature and mentors in synthesis-

 

Drift = post-stop advantage 

Drift is the movement of the rod tip in the direction the loop is unrolling which is: 

1) intentional 

2) lengthens available rod tip movement 

3) occurs early, effectively lengthening the casting stroke after the stop and after loop formation.

Note that drift may occur in any direction, either toward the back cast loop or toward the unrolling forward cast loop. Most often, it moves toward the unrolling back cast.

Usually, drift leads to compensatory stroke lengthening that may be applied to prevent tailing loops, especially when tails arise from creep. The primary prevention of tailing loops involves proper match of length of tip movement to the amount of fly line carried and extreme delay of rotation.

DRIFT is inherently dynamic. Any static depiction provides less complete information than animation or video. Essential to any graphic of DRIFT is a LONGER available rod tip movement for the post-DRIFT cast compared with the identical non-DRIFTED cast.

NOTE - DRIFT is the opposite of CREEP.

Undisciplined observers of casting confuse drift with a stop that is further from the caster. True drift comprises movement after an intentional stop that initiates loop formation. The DRIFT is directed into the unrolling loop, neither down nor back, unless that is the direction of the loop trajectory.

One of my own contributions to early comprehension of the topics in teaching is - "It is okay to be a drifter, but bad to be a creeper." 

 

Because Drift increases available casting delivery by lengthening the potential distance the tip may move in translation, it is a good tactic for error correction and essential to certain types of casting. Drift may also be applied to compensate for equipment poorly matched to the skill or technique of the under performing caster. Drift probably causes no problem when applied unnecessarily. At no time does drift displace the essential need to delay rotation as long as possible in casting a fly.

 

APPLICATIONS OF DRIFT

1) Too soft a rod leads to tailing loops

2) Caster creeps leading to tailing loops or abbreviating tip path causing tail

3) Carrying long line

4) Extending distance casts

>From the above list, one might incorrectly consider Drift to be a panacea for all tailing loops. Without clearly comprehending the casting flaw that produced the tail, applying a universal correction is merely a "band-aid" that covers-up the problem. The same is true of "dipping" the rod tip down at the end of the cast to move it out of the way of the line - merely a "band-aid" that never addresses the underlying cause.

More experienced FFF Certified Master Instructors or FFF Certified instructors probably offer enhanced observer skills in figuring out root casting flaws.

 

---

 

On the teaching topic - I would like to add that I develop the "up-assist" through "ride-up" on a shoot before teaching overhead casting haul (pulling) motions. The up-recovery is my first step and I have come to see it as less problematic than the other way around. I freely admit that it sounds complicated but does not really take that long and ends-up saving time as the transitions to smooth and effective hauling for power is more seamless

 

Gary Eaton.

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[GH]  NOW I understand what you meant.  At first, I thought you meant "drifting" into a forward stroke before loop formation.

Actually, you are using the term, "drift" exactly as I do !   My way of looking at it:

#  Drift can be in either direction (as you stated)... into an unrolling back cast loop or into an unrolling forward cast loop.

#  Many instructors, including Joan Wulff,  call it "followthrough" when it is done into any unrolling forward cast loop. She writes, " follow-through is called 'drift'  ". (In later years, she used the term, "drift" for rod movement back after the back cast and the term, "followthrough"  for the move after the forward cast. with no stated distinction between a forward false cast and a delivery cast. ) ***  I don't.

                                        WHY ?

Because I like to define drift as increasing available stroke length and casting arc for the next stroke. When false casting, that is just what both of us are describing as we use it on the forward stroke.

                                         SO.....

# I reserve the term "followthrough" for the same action made after the forward cast ON THE DELIVERY CAST..... where there is no next stroke and, therefore, no increase of available stroke length and casting arc.

*** Joan Wulff's FLY CASTING TECHNIQUES, 1987, pp. 34,63,43-44,47, 49,

Gordy