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  • Re: Conflicting view of definitions



    Stefan,

    WOW !  I see what you mean by the EFFA definitions.

    By "opposing agenda" I meant the apparent lack of apparent willingness for each organization to appreciate the views of the other resulting in the tenacity of each to maintain that theirs is the only way to go.

    I can teach using either set of definitions.

    Best,

    Gordy






    On Apr 30, 2011, at 6:57 PM, Stefan Siikavaara wrote:

    Hi Gordy!
     
    Thank you for your input!
     
    Maybe itÂs a language issue for me but I see no opposing agenda in the SL definitions or the group behind it. ItÂs not like there is money involed here or anything. The agenda we had was to have a set that works for teaching and holds togheter for both teaching a beginner and a high-end teacher. It should also be able to be used for having discussions about flycasting on all levels in order to to bring things forward.
     
    What is conflicting though is that the purposed set from the FFF was not something I and others could stand by. It would be embarrassing to see them get official since itÂs not strong enough. I would like to be proud of and use the definitions officially ratified by the organisation I belong to.
     
    IÂve discontinued all work, dues and contact with the EFFA way back, they just keep my name on their website for some reason. If you want to see one simple reason for leaving that organisation check out the very weak and colored definitions on the page below...  This is very embarrassing for every member of that organisation. ItÂs poorly written and there are a lot things in here that just donÂt add up. 
     
    The FFF-set is not quite this bad, but it certainly has many things that would make ALL of the instructors I know say Ooooops! and Oh noooo!  What I am saying is that it would be a major shame to see FFF-defintions that is not properly worked through and donÂt have good support from so many very active and progressive members of the organisation. Many of those people you will find on SL and they have all been a part of the discussions, ideas and work behind the definitions we launched, thatÂs just how it is and how itÂs been since way back.    
     
       
     
    Below is a few goodies from the EFFA-definitions. Enjoy!
     
     

    Stroke Length
                The distance the rod tip travels within a given casting arc.

    Roll Cast
    One of so called âwater castsâ, using the waterâs resistance instead of a back cast to load the rod.  A cast with no back cast, no change of direction and limited distance. Used in tight places, to straighten slack line, or bring a sink tip to the surface. The way the roll casts are performed today is far different from the roll casts in the past. In fact if we go into physics they are no real roll casts any more because they use a totally different physical principle than the ancient roll and original spey cast.
     
    Spey Casting
    A form of casting with double handed or single handed rods that has no back cast. A loop is formed underneath the rod tip on the back stroke that connects the rod tip to the water. Usually involving a change of direction. The way the cast is performed today is much different from and uses a totaly different physical principle as the original spey cast. What is called Spey Casting today is more a hybrid technique that can be better just describen as long line fly casting technique for double hand rods. Todays Speycasting uses more and more elements of the Underhand Casts but is misleadingly still called Spey Casting.
     
    Snap T
    A change of direction cast with no back cast. This cast is performed with the upstream arm and used when there is no wind, or an upstream wind. This cast uses and aggressive, vertical straight line path snap at the start of the cast. It was created by GÃnter Feuerstein. The name was given by Canadiens.
     
    Loop
    The loop of a fly line is found when casting and the line comes over the top of itself forming a big horizontal âUâ in the air over the fly rod, eventually straightening to a perfect line. Loop formation starts in the moment when the rod tip is flipping backwards after it has reached the the end position of the forward stroke(bent down rod tip). Loops are described as open or closed. Open loops mean slow casts and delicate presentations, while closed loops mean a quick line and hard landing, but effective for casting under structure and against the wind.
     
    Haul
    A tug on the fly line to increase its speed during the pickup, the back cast, or the forward cast. The speed translates to weight, thus loading the rod with more flex and propelling the line further and easier.
     
    Forward Stroke
    The final rod stroke that fires the line out into the river.
     
    Creep/Creeping

    A casting fault that usually takes place between the back and forward casts, where the fly rod incorrectly âcreepsâ forward instead of remaining still. Actually, this is a slow movement of the rod tip opposite that of a still unrolling loop which shortens the available stroke length. This often results in a tailing loop. 

     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Gordy
    Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 12:11 AM
    Subject: Re: Conflicting view of definitions

    Mark,

    They will never be considered "good enough" by those who have an opposing agenda.

    I have studied both the various renditions of the SL definitions and the incomplete ones the FFF Glossary committee has been working on.

    Each uses a different but not fallacious thought process.

    In my humble opinion, neither are perfect.  Both are quite usable, depending on how an instructor wishes to use them.

    Gordy





    On Apr 30, 2011, at 5:54 PM, Mark Surtees wrote:

    Hi Bruce
    To be honest I don't see why the FFF should give any consideration to opinions outside that of its own membership. I have no affiliation to any other instructing organisation other than the FFF, I'm only concerned with what the FFF choose  to put out.

    If they are good enough to do the job for which they have been created then a CBOG endorsement should be a formality and they can be published. There is no obligation on the part of the FFF to take a blind bit of notice of SL or anyone else in this part of the process.

    Post publication is a different matter.

    The question is..are they good enough ?

    Mark


    From: Bruce Richards
    Sent: 30 April 2011 19:12
    To: Mark Surtees; Guy Manning; 'Paul Arden'
    Cc: 'charles easterling'; 'gordy hill'; thegammelfamily@xxxxxxxxx; dksimo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; timr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; flycast90@xxxxxxx; stefan.siikavaara@xxxxxxxxx; simbirsw@xxxxxxx; grunde@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: Re: Conflicting view of definitions

    ï
    Hi Mark!
    First, many people have seen the FFF definitions, Paul certainly has and I assume shared with the SL group. In the past we certainly discussed them at great length. We haven't publicly published them because they have not been officially accepted by the CBOG.
     
    At this late date, and with the wisdom of hindsight, it would seem that the best plan regarding fly casting definitions would have been to put together a committee of experts from all the various fly casting instruction groups. Each group having their own definitions based on their particular needs/desires will be devisive I'm afraid. First the group would have to agree on a common goal, that is one reason there is division between SL and FFF defs. Then we'd have to make sure that all were equally informed re: fly casting dynamics, the science, not the folklore. I'm not sure this would be possible now since so much work has been done by two groups at least, and sides have been drawn. But I like to dream...
    Bruce
    ----- Original Message -----
    [The entire original message is not included.]