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Walter & Group...
[GH] From Dan McCrimmon :
Hi Gordy;
In regard to the use of the word power in the Task description, maybe we can change it in the next revision to force?
Why not start using the correct terms here? I know you agree that force is the more appropriate term.
Great place to start.
Tails;
Describing what causes a tail is always interesting. When we say they are caused by a concave rod tip path we are describing a result. Inappropriate power is the cause. Correct?
Dan
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[GH] Dan,
We'd be technically correct using the word FORCE in lieu of POWER. Up the Testing Committee.
When teaching, however, I think the term, "FORCE", sometimes gives the student the impression that he must use more effort than we'd like to have him exert. An example of a technically incorrect term exchanged for one which may be a better teaching term. We should be more precise when we speak with one another than we have been.
I agree with your last sentence. Perhaps we could look at it this way :
The inappropriate application of power (force) is one cause.
The concave tip path is primary result.
The line wave is a secondary result
The tail is the outcome.
Gordy
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[GH] Ally Gowans helps put things in perspective. My brief comments in his text in italics. :-
Hi Gordy,
I hadn’t intended to contribute to this discussion but now feel that I should in order to comment on a couple of things.
[GH] I probably should not have gone astray with discussions on loop size and mechanics apart from those relative to Task 19. Not good form for a "moderator".
During a cast the tip ring pulls the line for as long as the tip ring velocity and that part of the fly line velocity (momentum) close to the tip ring (or in a perfectly straight line situation, all of the fly line) are the same. When the tip ring velocity deviates from the line momentum a loop will form. At that point in time the useful energy interchange from rod to line is complete and indeed the rod may not “stop”. If it does not stop its movement will alter the relationship between the line’s flight (fly leg) and the rod leg but it cannot impart more energy to the line in the direction of the cast. Mike’s failure to understand the phases as described in my opinion illustrate his correct understanding of the cast.
[GH] Your description is a lot more clear to me than the ones I quoted from the literature ! I sent more of Jason's, A-L-E description yesterday, but this only deepened the paradox. Then I began t think that Jason may have meant by "transfer of energy" the dissipation of energy as the loop unrolled which would follow loop formation. After re reading the whole chapter, I don't think so.
I agree with Gary’s minimum loop width (depth) as being the deviation of the rod tip path from a straight line aligned with the fly line (assuming that the fly line is perfectly straight). I think that Lefty probably also does but that he used different words i.e. instead of “deviation” he used “the distance that one speeds up and stops” but I suspect that he meant the same thing. Unfortunately words alone are not the best means of communication.
[GH] Agree ! You will recall that I said that when the caster makes a long "speed up and stop", that the rod tip usually moves farther from the oncoming line and a wide loop results. Your use of the words, "deviation of the rod tip path from a straight line aligned with the fly line" is another way of describing this..... yet another word picture which, to me, says almost the same thing. This might also explain Bruce Richards' observation that the delay of rotation often results in tighter loops.
The words power and force I would rarely use in teaching because they imaginatively associate with moving heavy objects. Fly lines are never “heavy” and very little effort is used to move them correctly. Speed, acceleration, effort and energy I do use from time to time, the latter pair usually to encourage less use of either.
[GH[ Then how would you phrase Task 19 with respect to the use of "inappropriate power" ?
I suppose, that, "inappropriate use of force" would be OK when used between instructors.
Sometimes I'll say something simple to a student who gets a tail by that method : "You hit it too hard all at once..... Now try doing it smoothly." Analogous to the golfer who is told by his pro, "Don't try to kill the ball !"
Many a guide at stream side saves the day for his tailing angler with the simple use of "bandaid fixes" such as, "Make a longer stroke" or "Dip the rod tip down at the end of your cast". Doesn't get to the root of the problem, but works for the moment.
It seems odd to me that questions on tailing loops arise during the MCI test. Tailing loops are normally encountered at the start of a fly casting career or initial lesson and are they usually easily recognised and cured. It makes much more sense to examine causes and cures of them in a CCI test. Line location and form have a large bearing on effective arc and the likelihood of producing tailing loops.
[GH] Perhaps. The CCI exam does cover the tailing loop to the extent the candidate must do it as a demo. and explain how it was done. I wonder, however, if asking a CCI candidate to come up with multiple ways of making tails and explaining the casting mechanics for each might be a bit much to expect. (??????)
Best regards,
Ally Gowans
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[GH] On "power" and "force" by Guy Manning:
Dan's comments about the use of power where force is the proper term illustrates a problem that has been around for a while. I had 2 students correct me a few years back when using the term power in a workshop. I queried a BOG and was told that though power was incorrect it was ok to use it, since it was in common usage. That was bad advice and I have since been struggling to erase it from my vocabulary. Unfortunately it is in some of the literature and exposure to that makes it difficult to erase the term completely. I point to the 5 essentials:
5. Power must be applied in the proper amount at the proper place in the stroke.
Guy Manning
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[GH] Guy,
As you know, I rarely use the term, FORCE rather than POWER in our deliberations. I, too, will try to be more accurate.
Ally's point about not using either with students is something to consider.
Reminds me of ol Al (Al Crise) teaching application of force to his young students. They understood what he meant when he used the term, "ZOOMIES". In his language with these youngsters, "more zoomies" meant more force. When he wanted them to cast more smoothly, he used the term, "ZOOOOOOOOOMMMMIES" ! The kids loved him .... and he got results.
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[GH] From Mack Martin :
Gordy:
Regarding the comments from Gary Eaton on tip path and loop formation, all of our night video clips and work with the casting analyzer confirm exactly what Gary is saying and of course are in line with FFF casting essentials. David Diaz will have an interesting program related to this subject at the CE seminar at Unicoi Lodge in June 2011.
Mack Martin - MCI
Atlanta Fly Fishing School
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[GH] Mack,
Thanks. The fact that the CA findings and your night video clips match Gary's statements doesn't surprise me at all. He's an extremely well informed Master.
I sure enjoyed working with you on those night shots we made a few years back. You've got a great set-up for doing that including very little ambient light pollution.
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