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Walter & Group...
[GH] As you read these responses, take note of the differences as well as the similarities in the answers.
[GH] From Les Rosenthal :
[GH] Recently, a question was sent to several MCI's which basically asked for the best time to start the forward cast with respect to the unfurling back cast loop. The responses included several different opinions. This brings me to ask these 11 questions;-
1. From a purely casting mechanics standpoint, is it most efficient to start the forward cast... :-
a. Just before the back cast loop has fully unrolled ? Since the leader has negligible mass, the forward cast could be started before the leader has unrolled.
b. Just after the back cast loop has fully unrolled ? When the fly line has lost momentum and hasn’t started to fall, then the forward cast could be started.
c. Exactly at the point where the back cast loop has straightened ? I’d say just as the fly line has straightened.
2. How do you usually do it ? I watch my back casts when possible, and start my forward cast when the fly line has straightened and has lost it’s backward momentum and I feel the weight of the line preload.
3. What is likely to happen if the caster starts the forward cast way too early (when the back cast is only about 2/3rds unrolled) ? Creep, because the fly leg of the loop is going backward while the rod leg is going forward.
4. What are some of the problems which may occur if you wait too long after the back cast loop has fully unfurled ? The fly line will lose momentum, start to fall, create the ‘whale’s belly’, and may introduce slack into the system. It’s also possible to use the fall to maintain the 180 degree rule and re-direct the forward cast slight more elevated if desired.
5. Briefly explain how you would teach your beginning casting student to do it. I prefer starting with horizontal line casting exercises with the student working on smooth acceleration, (which I call thee most difficult skill in fly casting to learn), to a hard stop. They let the fly line and leader unfurl and learn to lay down along a straight line. Once they master the tight loops casting one direction, then I couple front and back casts together until they can false cast well. They extend the fly line as they progress in ability.
6. You have an intermediate level student. She is doing fairly well, but is having trouble with timing in that she can't judge the time to start her forward cast. She has arthritis and cannot turn to see her back cast. How would you approach that problem ? I like the line casting so they can face their front and back casts to learn the feel of the load of the fly line. For non-lookers I begin by teaching Lefty’s “I’m from ‘my city’ ” pause, until they can feel the preload on the back cast.
7. Briefly describe some of the methods used by expert distance casters as they go from an unrolling back cast loop to their forward cast. There’s a great article in the file called, “Going for Distance” by Al Kyte and Gary Moran that details eleven factors I’d refer to. Elite casters stopped the rod more abruptly keeping slack out of their back cast loop, I think the one that makes the most difference for me is drifting which allows me to lay back and widen the rotation of my rod angle and increase the stroke distance I have to smoothly accelerate to my hard stop.
8. How would you describe CREEP ? Unloaded casting stroke
9. Do you think that a fully unrolled back cast loop has much rearward momentum ? If it was overpowered.
10. Many instructors have used the term, PRE-LOAD. What does this mean to you ? In a back cast pre-load is the bend of the rod caused by the rearward momentum of the fly line.
11. Distance casters sometimes use the term, HANG TIME. What do you think this means ? Hang time is the time between fly line straightening and when gravity makes it begin to fall.
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[GH] From Mark Milkovitch :
Gordy,
Here are my answers to the quiz.
Mark
1. From a purely casting mechanics standpoint, is it most efficient to start the forward cast:
a. Just before the back cast loop has fully unrolled?
b. Just after the back cast loop has fully unrolled?
c. Exactly at the point where the back cast loop has straightened?
When I practice and watch the back casts it appears to be at the point where the loop has straightened.
2. How do you usually do it?
I try to anticipate the tug of the line straightening and be ready to begin the cast as it occurs.
3. What is likely to happen if the caster starts the forward cast way too early (when the back cast is only about 2/3rds unrolled)?
Inability to load the rod sufficiently for the long cast which will fail at worst of show a tailing loop at best from erratic late power application.
4. What are some of the problems which may occur if you wait too long after the back cast loop has fully unfurled?
Line tension is lost and there is slack in the system
5. Briefly explain how you would teach your beginning casting student to do it.
For beginning students I simply tell them that after they feel the “rod bump” in their hand after a cast, it is time to begin the next stroke.
6. You have an intermediate level student. She is doing fairly well, but is having trouble with timing in that she can't judge the time to start her forward cast. She has arthritis and cannot turn to see her back cast. How would you approach that problem ?
For people somewhat beyond raw beginners I like to use the two primary sources of casting feedback: what we can see and what we can feel. I like to begin with horizontal casts which can be seen and then have students feel the straightening line (eyes closed if needed) as a way to begin the process of learning to anticipate timing for the next stroke.
7. Briefly describe some of the methods used by expert distance casters as they go from an unrolling back cast loop to their forward cast.
I don’t know
8. How would you describe CREEP?
Non functional rod movement in the direction of the next stroke.
9. Do you think that a fully unrolled back cast loop has much rearward momentum?
Enough to bend the rod back exactly as much as it does when the rod is stopped.
10. Many instructors have used the term, PRE-LOAD. What does this mean to you ?
The bend described in #9 is what I call preload.
11. Distance casters sometimes use the term, HANG TIME. What do you think this means ?
The time the tensioned line hangs briefly suspended and extended after it straightens.
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[GH] From Bryan Nims :
Hi Gordy, The following are my answers:
1) a. Just before the back cast loop has fully unrolled. When the last part of the line looks like a fish hook.
2) Watch and feel - watch the backcast unroll and if my timing is correct, the rod tip should load immediately as I move my hand forward.
3) Slack is being pulled from the line and shock waves are created in the forward cast or the bullwhip crack sound is heard behind you or both.
4) Rod tip relaxes, creating slack. Lack of pressure sensed on the rod tip. Can also lead to shock waves, open loops or more effort needed to complete the forward cast.
5) Watch your backcast. Begin the forward cast just before the line unrolls. Feel and see the rod load immediately as the forward cast is begun. Have them experience cast's that are purposely begun too early and too late and note the resulting difference of all three.
6) Assuming no headwind or tailwind, have them notice the time taken for the forward cast to unroll, and pause the same amount of time on the backcast. Encourage her to feel optimum rod load. The perfect timing to begin the forward cast is felt in the rod tip when the tip loads immediately as the hand moves forward. I may say " pause, and start forward when I say now" to help with timing. This may also be a time where you ask to put your hand on the rod with hers and let her feel rod load and timing as I guide the cast.
7) Upward trajectory of the backcast as they get to extreme distance to allow gravity to lower the line so it is fairly level with the rod tip as they begin the forward cast.
8) Creep: while the backcast is unrolling, a repositioning of the rod hand forward, reducing the width of the casting arc.
9) No. Line tension is lost as soon as the line straightens..
10) Pre-Load is the force of the backcast straightening and pulls the rod into a slight bend for the forward stroke.
11) Hang time - gravity effect on the fly line at long distances. See my answer for #7. Although the line may be traveling horizontally, gravity also causes it to lower towards the ground or water surface. Upward trajectory of the cast is necessary to compensate for gravity. Hang time increases as the distance increases.
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[GH] From Jim Laing :
[GH] Recently, a question was sent to several MCI's which basically asked for the best time to start the forward cast with respect to the unfurling back cast loop. The responses included several different opinions. This brings me to ask these 11 questions;-
1. From a purely casting mechanics standpoint, is it most efficient to start the forward cast... :- Just before (as the leader unrolls) to slightly aft. Exact may be asking too much.
a. Just before the back cast loop has fully unrolled ?
b. Just after the back cast loop has fully unrolled ?
c. Exactly at the point where the back cast loop has straightened ?
2. How do you usually do it ? Watch the loop.
3. What is likely to happen if the caster starts the forward cast way too early (when the back cast is only about 2/3rds unrolled) ? shortened casting stroke = tailing loop
4. What are some of the problems which may occur if you wait too long after the back cast loop has fully unfurled ? a) tension is lost as line makes contact with ground or water b) loop legs cross when "pulling the line out of a hole"
5. Briefly explain how you would teach your beginning casting student to do it. Typically have them start the opposite cast when they see the line take the shape of a "candy cane or J lying on its side".
6. You have an intermediate level student. She is doing fairly well, but is having trouble with timing in that she can't judge the time to start her forward cast. She has arthritis and cannot turn to see her back cast. How would you approach that problem ? a) you tell her when to start her cast - "GO" b) open her stance and put her "elbow on the shelf" so that she is in a comfortable position and can watch both her BC and FC.
7. Briefly describe some of the methods used by expert distance casters as they go from an unrolling back cast loop to their forward cast. Body and rod is always repositioned to take advantage of a longer casting stroke for the following cast.
8. How would you describe CREEP ? Initial part of a casting stroke when the unloaded rod is moved in the direction of the cast..
9. Do you think that a fully unrolled back cast loop has much rearward momentum ? No
10. Many instructors have used the term, PRE-LOAD. What does this mean to you ? IMO, pre-load has nothing to do with "rearward momentum". Pre-load happens initially in the casting stroke, as a straightened flyine is dragged in the direction of the cast, prior to rotation. Some of the very best distance casters are able to bend into the butt section of a rod with longer drag and very little if any rotation...
11. Distance casters sometimes use the term, HANG TIME. What do you think this means ? Don't know, but once watched a guy I met on the sexyloops forum lay his rod down, sip a gin & tonic and light a cigarette while his loop unrolled. Very impressive!
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[GH] More answers in our next message.
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