Gordon & Group...
[GH] Congratulations to Todd Somsel who just passed his Master Exam !
Gordy,
Just a quick note to say Merry Christmas and thank you. I passed my MCI exam Saturday and could not have accomplished the tasks without your mentorship coaching, and the study group.
Hope to catch up soon.
Thanks again
Todd
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[GH] From John Johnson :
Hi Gordy,
I am very interested in the discussion about what happens right after RSP. The idea of tensioning the fly or rod leg to get various loop shapes is also very useful .We are saying that if we have a straight fly leg and we stop the rod leg high we will get a small loop. If we stop it low we will get a large loop. I have been trying to relate this to my problem with large loops on the back cast with long casts. We agree that drift does not open the loop since it occurs after RSP. Maybe what I need to work on is stabbing the rod up in the air at the stop like John VanDalen suggests or maybe using a Thrust cast like Gary Borger to get the rod tip up at the RSP? Any ideas on this?
John
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[GH] John,
Study the message, below, from Soon Lee on loop size.
Without actually seeing you make that back cast with the large loop, I can't really make a diagnosis let alone come up with a correction.
As I see it, however, the same principles apply with regard to loop formation on both the forward cast and the back cast.
Whether or not you elect to drift or to do as John VanDalen suggests, stopping with the rod traveling in an upward/back direction will help if your problem lies in a less than well controlled wrist with the rod tip going in a downward direction at the end of the cast.
A "thrust" made in the direction of a distant target chosen behind you directly in line with the target in front (a cloud, top of a distant tree or building, etc.) may help. Some call this the "Lefty's stab". Of course, it can be made in lieu of a back drift as Lefty does and many others do as well.
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[GH] Soon Lee responds to my simplistic overview of the determinants of loop size as he relates it to events with relation to line launch. Well worth careful study :
Gordy and all,
Here is a contrarian view on loop size.
As currently accepted, casting stroke begins at the start and finishes at maximum counterflex at the end of "stop" ("stop" has a definition of its own that we will not get into here). We should remember that there is a point within this stroke when the line is launched, that is, that there is casting stroke before line launch (CS-BL) and casting stroke after line launch (CS-AL).
1) CS-BL governs profile of upper leg of the loop: SLP here results in loop with straight upper leg; concave tip path here results in tailing loop; convex tip path here results in non-loop.
2) Point of line launch: this is a seminal event, the importance of which has sadly not been appreciated.
3) CS-AL governs loop size: Once line is launched, the remainder of the casting stroke cannot change the profile of the upper leg. Because the line is still "tethered" to the rod tip, how far the tod tip deviates from the point of line launch determines loop size. Rod tip path in this segment of the casting stroke is always convex tip path in order for the line to launch.
4) In effect casting stroke as currently defined is a compound stroke: before line launch it can be SLP, concave, or convex; after line launch it is always convex tip path. This is why it is claimed that pure SLP through the entire stroke does not exist, that it is only an abstract concept, because of convex tip path during CS-AL. Well, pure concave tip path for tailing loop does not exist either because of convex tip path during CS-AL.
5) We have become selective in choosing either CS-BL or CS-AL to prove our individual point of view. We emphasize SLP (CS-BL) to explain tight loop. We emphasize convex tip path (CS-AL) to explain wide loop.
To give a hearty but different X'mas perspective,
1.) Path of of the rod tip during the casting stroke -
Convex rod tip path = wide loop.
A wide loop with a straight upper leg has SLP during CS-BL and large convex tip path during CS-AL.
A variant of wide loop, "open loop", has a very short SLP during CS-BL and very large convex tip path during CS-AL.
Straight (almost) rod tip path = small loop.
A narrow loop with straight upper leg has SLP during CS-BL and minimal convex tip path during CS-AL.
Concave rod tip path = tailing loop
A tailing loop has concave tip path during CS-BL and convex tip path (be it minimal or large) during CS-AL.
I should add that a non-loop has convex tip path through both CS-BL and CS-AL It has no SLP to launch a straight upper leg. There is no loop (a loop has two legs), just fly line cartwheeling off the rod tip.
2.) The position of the rod tip relative to the oncoming line as it travels through the Rod Straight Position (as the loop starts to appear as the line starts to overtake the rod tip ).
CAVEATS:
a. If RSP* occurs with the tip close to the oncoming line the loop is small.
If CS-AL is small loop size is narrow.
b. If RSP occurs with the rod tip down a greater distance from the oncoming line the loop is larger.
If CS-AL is large loop size is wide.
c. The shorter you "speed up and stop", the closer RSP is to the oncoming line = small loop (Lefty Kreh)**
The shorter you "speed up and stop", the smaller the CS-AL.
d. The longer you "speed up and stop" the farther RSP is to the oncoming line = larger loop (Lefty Kreh) **
The longer you "speed up and stop", the larger the CS-AL.
e If the caster begins the casting stroke with a convex rod tip path followed by an almost straight path, the loop is wide with the fly leg elevated. (Sometimes used to "kite" the fly line when casting with a strong wind from behind.)
Agreed, except that width of loop depends on CS-AL.
f. a. through d. can be considered loop size determined by the path of the rod tip NEAR THE END OF THE STROKE.
a. through d. can be considered loop size determined by the path of the rod tip during CS-AL.
g. e. still represents loop size determined by rod tip path AT THE BEGINNING OF THE STROKE.
e. still represents loop shape determined by rod tip path during CS-BL and loop size determined by rod tip path during CS-AL.
I have proposed in other postings that CS-BL be simply called "casting stroke". It prepares our fly line for launching. SLP leads to straight upper leg.
I have also proposed that CS-AL be simply called "stop"......we can get into "stop" another time.
Happy Holidays to all,
Soon.
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[GH] Soon,
Relating loop size to rod tip path prior to and after line launch is something I had not previously considered.
As I think about it, however, it does make sense.
Right in line with our discussions on the "point" and "direction" of line launch.
Your comment about the "point of line launch" being unappreciated is certainly true. Witness to this is the fact this is the first time during our Study Group's ten years that we have really visited this !
One problem lies in our not as yet having full agreement on exactly when that point appears during the casting stroke.
A second problem is than none of the definition committees (glossary committees) have been in agreement as to the completion of the casting stroke. You have seen it as the point of maximum counterflex. (RSP 2). Others see it as finishing at RSP 1. I see neither or alternatives as being :"commonly accepted" but I could embrace either as point of discussion. I can also accept your concept of the casting stroke as ending with line launch (CS - BL -Casting stroke before line launch) as reasonable. None of this is "written in stone on the mount".
Your proposal that CS -AL (Casting stroke after line launch) be called "stop" does have merit because that is where the "stop sequence" must come to a halt since this is the first actual point of cessation of movement as the rod tip actually changes direction into rebound. Other contrarians may point out that this is the STOP OF THE ROD TIP. Not the "stop" of the hand or rod butt.
In the event that a caster really did have perfect SLP (straight line path) of his rod tip all the way through the stroke....even after the launch point, this would result in the line colliding with the rod tip. Some convexity of tip path must occur to prevent this from happening. The less convexity of the tip path at this point (AL -after launch) the smaller the loop. This is what Lefty Kreh tries to achieve with his "direct teaching" of a student to, "try to hit your rod tip with your line as you cast". If the caster does have a collision, he says, "Dip your thumb a frog hair" (This provides the needed convexity.) No fancy mechanics or physics explanations for the student ..... but it works.
None of this can help us actually teach fly casting until and unless we can reduce it to simple terms which will make a difference to the student caster.
A non-scientific way of simply teaching this concept of loop size determinationis to say, "The size of the loop is mainly determined by the path of the rod tip at the end of the cast". Most students can understand that.
As a contrarian, you make us think. I love that, Soon !
Gordy
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