Answers to Pick up & Lay down quiz

1.) Briefly descibe this maneuver in your own words.

Pick up/loading move, power snap, stop, pause, loading move, power snap, stop, pause, lay down.

OK, when using Joan Wulff's language. G.

2.) Do you use this technique when teaching new casters ?

Yes

I do, too. Most answered that they did use it when teaching new casters. G.

3.) Why do you think it is important enough to use for new casters ?

For them to correctly learn the different parts/moves of the basic cast.

Agree. It also helps teach them to make a smoothly progressive back cast early in the game. G.

4.) If you do NOT use it, tell us your reason (s).

5.) Would you ever use it when teaching intermediate or advance casting students ? List examples, if so.

Yes, when a caster has major faults with their casting, it will help them to relearn the basics.

Agree. Some times the "back to basics" move is good for each of us !

Also: # When I teach any caster from beginner to advanced to smooth out the cast. I start with the pick up from the water and have the student do it repeatedly each time trying for less water disturbance each time.

Then I have them do it with a pick up from behind. That helps smoothout the forward cast.

# Sometimes I use the pick up and lay down for timing of the start of the forward cast as the back cast loop unfurls. Once learned with one length of line, I have the student do it with varied line lengths. G.

6.) What do you see as the most common fault when students do the pick-up and lay down ?

They break their wrist.

Yes. An out of control wrist. Of course, this leads to a convex rod tip path and a big loop .... sometimes even hitting the ground or water behind the caster.

The one I see most frequently is the caster who starts with the rod tip up too high off the water. This yields slack and places the cating arc back making it more likely that the caster will make the back cast back and down. G.

7.) How do you correct this ?

I have them watch the line on their back cast and explain why they have a large loop and show them, by holding the rod above their hand, what their loop would look like with a straight wrist.

Yes. Many other ways of correcting this, too. They range from using wrist restraints to the instructor standing behind the caster, even sometimes reaching to stop the rod before it goes back and down.

Correcting the rod tip too high at the start is easy. Simply have the caster make sure the rod tip is AT THE SURFACE of the water. (Exaggeration to emphasize the point.) G.

8.) What do you find as the second most common fault ?

No pause on the back cast.

That's another one. Even if a pause is used, it may not be timed properly to match the unrolling of the back cast loop.

Some casters start the pick up with the rod tip down at the water, but the line on the water isn't straight. Coils and wavey line on the water add up to slack which must be taken up before an effective pick up back cast can be made. G.

9.) How do you correct this one ?

Again, have them watch the line on the back cast and explain that the line needs to straighten out to get the rod properly loaded for the forward cast. I hold the rod with them and show them the difference between no pause and with the proper pause.

OK for helping to cure that problem.

When the problem is that the line isn't straight on the water before the cast, that must be pointed out to the student who must then strip in just enough line so that the remainder is straight. (With beginners, sometimes that line is such a mess out there that I'll roll cast it out for the student after explaining just what I'm doing.) G.

10.) Can you think of other faults likely to appear ? List them.

Starting with rod too high, starting power snap too late, casting with extended arm, rod travel too far to the rear, trying to cast as with a spinning rod, not stopping on forward cast and driving line into the ground

Agree.

11.) Where do you prefer your student's rod tip to be at the start of the pick-up and lay down maneuver ?

At or near the water or ground.

Yes.

Easier to remove any slack in line before starting power snap.

Since you are using Joan Wulff't terminology, let me ask : Wouldn't you start the pick up with a loading move prior to your power snap ? G.

13.) Where in the fly casting literature can you find a detailed description of the pick-up & lay down cast ?

Joan Wulff?s book ?Fly Casting Techniques?, Phil Genova?s book ?First Cast? , one of Lefty?s books, and one of Mel Krieger?s books.

You will find the entire scenario in print and photo's in Capter 5 of Mel Krieger's THE ESSENCE OF FLY CASTING, pp. 49 - 51. (Tom White used to take issue, however, with the position of the rod tip at the start of the pick up in the uppermost photo on p 48. He always taught that the rod tip should be even lower than as shown.)

I did not find the complete pick up & lay down description in Joan Wulff's FLY CASTING TECHNIQUES. (She does introduce the term, "pick up" on p. 155 and later in text goes into various kinds of pick ups.) If you did find it on one of Lefty's books, please let me know. He has plenty on pick ups, but I didn't find the pick up and lay down as a seperate event.

Having said that, I think that one of the best teachings on making a proper pick up is found in Lefty Kreh's video entitled, "LESSONS WITH LEFTY. In this video, he is teaching Sarah Gardner to do this. (Sarah plays the part of a student. She is actually an expert caster. ) G.

14.) Ally Gowans has stated that the caster must get the line ORGANIZED before making a pickup. What do you think he means by this ?

Removes the slack. Straighten the line in front of them.

Yes.

15.) Lefty Kreh writes that there is something the caster must do prior to making the actual pickup. What is that ?

Get the end of the fly line moving.

Yes. He calls it "PRINCIPLE 1 " . *

* CASTING WITH LEFTY KREH by Lefty Kreh, p. 12. (Check out pp. 12 -14. He has great photo's and description of both incorrect and correct ways of making the pick up.) G.

16.) Given the choice, would you prefer to teach this maneuver to your students on grass, in a gymnasium (with no wind) or on water ?

On the water.

Agree.

Resistance between the fly line and the water will help the student load the rod and make better casts.

True. However, I think the no. 1 reason is that you need the water to help the student see the difference between ripping the line off the surface and lifting it smoothly. Great feedback. G.

18.) You are teaching this cast with a 10 mile per hour wind. What do you feel is the best way to position you student with respect to this breeze ?

The breeze should be coming from their line hand side.

Agree.

19.) Describe the ideal line plane (trajectory / launch angle) for this task.

Tilted to the rod side away from the student around 45 degrees.

You have described what many call the ROD PLANE or the CASTING PLANE. Not trajectory. My working definition of ROD PLANE : THE ORIENTATION OF THE ROD FROM VERTICAL TO HORIZONTAL ON EITHER SIDE OF THE CASTER.

My answer would be: UP and back for the pick up back cast and straight and a bit down on the forward cast.

So the line does not hit the student.

OK to use a style of casting which is rod plane off vertical in varying degrees..... also OK to do it with a strictly vertical rod plane; especially if you are demonstrating as an instructor and you want your students to see the loop well. (I don't fish that way and perhaps you don't either ..... so we might call that a sort of "teaching style". ) Point is that it can be done that way without the line striking the caster.

The idea is to maintain approximately 180 degrees between the trajectory of the back cast and that of the forward cast for greatest efficiency. (Some call this "The 180 degree rule ". ) G.

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From Tony Loader :

Hi Gordy,

My quiz answers below.

Your comment to Troy as to the scores of answer sheets, reminds me to thank you again for the vast amount of time that you spend helping this group.

Regards,

Tony.

Tony .... I do read every one. I learn a lot that way !!! G.

Start with a SHORT ANSWER. Add a LONG ANSWER when needed or when asked to describe. :

1.) Briefly descibe this maneuver in your own words. Commence with rod tip low, no slack, line trapped between finger and cork. Lift line from water or ground, make a back cast, deliver a forward cast to a point about two feet above where the fly left the surface, follow the falling line/fly down with the rod tip.

2.) Do you use this technique when teaching new casters ? Yes

3.) Why do you think it is important enough to use for new casters ? It teaches observance of ?the essentials?

4.) If you do NOT use it, tell us your reason (s).

5.) Would you ever use it when teaching intermediate or advance casting students ? List examples, if so. Yes. Peter Hayes teaches an exercise he calls ?Three Chances?. Commencing with one rod length only of line beyond the rod tip, the caster is allowed three pickup and laydown casts to extend as much line as possible. This not only teaches the essentials to a high level but also incorporates line control and provides objective feedback by way of distance achieved.

Yes ! Peter showed me that about two years ago. A good teaching move. Simple and effective. G.

6.) What do you see as the most common fault when students do the pick-up and lay down ? Introducing slack by commencing with the rod tip too high.

Most agreed with you that this was the one they see most often. G.

7.) How do you correct this ? Ask students to ?wet the tip? before each cast.

Good word picture ! G.

8.) What do you find as the second most common fault ? Incorrect power application ? usually too much too soon.

Very common. "Ripping it off the water........." G.

9.) How do you correct this one ? With soft grip, maintain the ?waterfall? at point P during line lift, at a constant 1 inch in height. Just as the nail knot leaves the water, ?squeeze the cork/snap the wrist? then relax the hand. Watch every back cast while practicing.

Sounds as though you have been reading Simon Gawesworth on Spey Casting. Nothing wrong with that. G.

10.) Can you think of other faults likely to appear ? List them. Excessive arc, poor timing, poor tracking, ?soft stops?, poor trajectory, poor loop symmetry - front vs back.

11.) Where do you prefer your student's rod tip to be at the start of the pick-up and lay down maneuver ? At surface level.

12.) Why ? For minimal slack.

13.) Where in the fly casting literature can you find a detailed description of the pick-up & lay down cast ? ?Master The Cast? ? George V Roberts Jr.

14.) Ally Gowans has stated that the caster must get the line ORGANIZED before making a pickup. What do you think he means by this ? Recognising that not all casting strokes commence with line straight between the rod tip and the fly, the caster must position the line so as to be able to achieve tension between the rod tip and the fly at the earliest opportunity.

15.) Lefty Kreh writes that there is something the caster must do prior to making the actual pickup. What is that ? ?Get the end of the flyline moving?

16.) Given the choice, would you prefer to teach this maneuver to your students on grass, in a gymnasium (with no wind) or on water ? On water

17.) Why ? To build ?muscle memory? for fishing. Due to friction, lifting line from water requires a different power application to that from grass. Maintaining the ?waterfall? at a constant height provides an objective measure of initial acceleration and initiates good back cast trajectory.

18.) You are teaching this cast with a 10 mile per hour wind. What do you feel is the best way to position you student with respect to this breeze ? Breeze coming across the body from the line hand side

19.) Describe the ideal line plane (trajectory / launch angle) for this task. As determined by line beyond the rod tip and the rod plane but always higher behind and lower in front.

Good point ! If picking with the fly only 15 feet in front of the caster, the back cast trajectory must be higher than if picking up from 45 feet. G.

20.) Why ? The target in front is lower than the rod tip when the rod (or its chord) is perpendicular to the ideal ?straight line path? (SLP) of the rod tip, this ideal SLP being aligned at 180 degrees to the target.

Tony

Gordy