Answers / Loop legs / Tails / Direction

Walter & Group...

Bruce Richards' comments on Craig Buckbee's answers:

Gordy,

Excellent answers, but I'd mark him down just slightly for his last two
answers, depending on his definition of "stop". More correctly he could
have stated      tip path prior to and after "loop formation". To me, the
"stop" is rod butt deceleration following acceleration, not just RSP. But
if his definition of "stop" is where rod TIP deceleration starts, he is
correct. 

 It is an interesting concept, rod butt angular acceleration is
decreasing while rod tip speed is increasing at the same time.

Bruce

Scientific Anglers/3M

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Bruce...  I had interpreted Craig to mean where tip deceleration begins (at RSP).   Of course, the tip really doesn't actually stop at RSP, but starts to decelerate as the rod goes in to counterflex.  The term "loop formation" would indeed have covered it since RSP is the point at which loop formation begins.

Your CA studies have shown, as you stated in your last sentence, that rod tip speed is greatest in the 0.1 sec. between the STOP (rapid negative acceleration) of the hand and rod butt and RSP..... yet acceleration of the rod tip has not changed.  That concept is hard for many to grasp.

To the caster or especially the casting student, what happens between those two points over only a tenth of a second doesn't mean much if anything at all.  To the physicist or the person studying the in depth details of casting mechanics, it means a great deal .... because so much is happening during that brief interval.

I had asked for SHORT ANSWERS.  If I'd asked Craig that on an MCCI exam, I'd have followed up by requesting more detail.  I think you would have done the same.  I'll bet he'd have been right on target.

Gordy

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From Walter Simberski .  My comments in bold blue italics    G. :

Gordy,

 

If we accept the idea that loops can have parallel legs when viewed from one direction but not be parallel when viewed from

another direction then we have to also accept the fact that a loop that looks like it has parallel legs may be tailed.

 

True, unless an actual collision occurs as the fly leg crosses the rod leg.    G.

 

I've observed that when people cast "Lefty" style the loops may look tailed when viewed from the side but when viewed from

the front or back they look parallel. If the amount of line carried is significant then the affect of gravity begins to take hold

and these loops will begin to look slightly askew even when viewed from front or back. If these loops were viewed from a location

that was perpendicular to the casting plane then they would still look parallel.

 

Yes.  Really depends upon the position of the observer relative to the loop plane. (Like Einstein's gedenken experiment with the bullet and the ascending elevator.  (A bullet shot through the elevator travels in a straight line as seen from the outside.  To a person in the rising elevator, it appears to take a curved path. )

 

With respect to causing a tailing loop by underpowering the cast this actually takes a fairly practised hand to accomplish.

Once the loop is formed energy is being transferred to the fly leg from the rod leg so the fly leg will tend to remain in motion

even as the rod leg is collapsing. When observing an underpowered cast is that as the loop begins to collapse is that the rod

leg sags and drops to the ground while the fly leg continues on. Getting the two legs to cross before the rod leg falls all the way

to the ground is not as easy as it sounds.

 

Trick is to not change the casting plane as you do this.  Still not easy !   G.

 

This is one way to create a tailing loop even when the path of the rod tip is convex. According to Mac Brown's book we should also

be able to cause a tailing loop with a convex path by changing casting planes, i.e. a low rear trajectory followed by a low forward

trajectory. Again, a difficult thing to accomplish in real life.

 

Here, again, if you wish to duplicate the tails depicted in Mac's BOX DIAGRAMS, it is best to not change casting planes between the back cast and the forward cast. *

 

I believe we discussed the idea of creating a tailing loop with a convex path at the Conclave in Whitefish and the concensus was

that this could be accomplished by allowing an excessive pause at the end of the cast, so that the line falls after unrolling, and then

trying to maintain the original or a lower line plane on the reverse cast.

 

We did.  We also performed this.   G.

 

This brings up the question of whether a tailing loop requires the rod and fly legs to cross twice or if once is sufficient. If we look

at what happens during a false cast we have to compensate for gravity which means that to keep our legs parallel to the ground

we actually have to cast slightly upwards. This would mean that a concave rod tip path actually crosses the ideal slp twice so

a tailing loop caused by a concave path should cross twice.

 

I'll have to think about that one after another cup of coffee.  At first blush, I think you may be right.

 

My very wordy 2 cents worth.

 

Hope the hand is better.  (Doing fine !)

 

Walter

 

* CASTING ANGLES, Mac Brown, pp. 96-107.

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From Lefty Kreh...

 

Gordy--as usual interesting.

            About the bullet statement--and I may have been the first to use that--thinking it will impress the student about how carefully they must stop the rod in the desired direction. I shall continue to use it, since it seems to be effective instructions..

What I have said and written and still believe is THE LINE GOES IN THE DIRECTION THE TIP STOPS OR STRAIGHTENS.

 

When casting we do a lot of things to alter where the leader and fly go: curve cast, tuck cast, which is simply a vertical curve cast, snap cast, mending the line in mid-air, etc. But I believe that once the rod tip stops we have directed the line in that direction.  None of the casts mentioned above were possible unless the rod was stopped in the proper direction.

 

Lefty

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