Overhang: Effects / QUIZ

Walter & Group...

 

PLEASE NOTE:   I WILL BE AWAY FOR THE NEXT 5 DAYS.   GORDY

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Question from Mark Huber on the effects of OVERHANG :

HI Gordy,

This is a portion of the discussion on overhang and counterflex from Capt. Kirk’s spey group.  My comments are in blue below.  This is something that I have never really fully understood.  Feel free to shoot it out to the group for comments.  I would like to get a better understanding of overhang and it impacts in the proper amount.

a.      How does overhang reduce weight of line at rod tip at any time [not only at counterflex?] Let's say we are casting a 55 foot, short head spey line. Using a short amount of overhang, (running line in the top ring), there is less potential for counterflex that could open the loop. With a thicker length of fly line in the rings and tip guide, there is more potential for counterflex. Loop shape is largely determined by the path of the rod tip prior to RSP. Having the thin running line in the tip guides may facilitate a straighter path of the rod tip. Just guessing. That's the way I look at it. Comments from the group?

As I understand overhang, is purpose to delay turnover of the loops and tighten the loop shape.  Tightening of the loop shape occurs due to less counterflex of the rod following loop formation.  Counterflex can be caused by several factors including 1) load of the rod (increased load increases counterflex), 2) a hard stop without dampening the rod (no dampening increases couterflex).  Counterflex is Newton 3^rd law of motion at work “for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction”.

I don’t see how the mass/weight of line at the rod tip just prior to RSP would impact counterflex.  It seems that line weight/mass carried comes down to bend in the rod.  I understand this as increased mass/weight of the line carried can result in more bend/load in the rod resulting in increased counterflex.

Assuming an otherwise SLP of the rod tip and other factors being equal, I have understood that the loops can be narrower with overhang due to the mass profile of the running line being less than the mass profile of the shooting head at loop formation.  Due to the increased mass of the shooting head, the shooting head over takes the running line at loop formation from momentum of the casting stroke absent being pulled over from the lower leg and thus a narrower loop.  That is the balance of overhang, the right amount of running line overhang and the shooting head maintains both direction and momentum at loop formation; provide too much overhang and there is less control of direction and reduced momentum at loop formation. 

I have yet to get this concept nailed down in my mind.  Maybe someone with considerable experience casting shooting heads could chime in.

Mark

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Answer from Steve Rajeff:-

Hi Gordy,

I hope all is well for you and Priscilla.

 

I do not think modest changes in overhang affects the load in the middle/butt area of the rod, only the immediate tip area,(top 10 – 20 % of rod length), depending on rod taper and stiffness.

If there was a machine capable of making identical strokes/power/path of rod tip, and we could change lengths of overhang, I believe we would see the rod tip counter flex more at the moment of stop with no overhang, than with a long overhang. If someone were to put a pinch of putty, (maybe 1/4 oz), next to the tip top, it would increase the counter flex. By keeping the belly of the line close to the tip, I believe it creates more swing weight right at the rod tip causing the counter flex similar to the putty example. By lengthening the overhang, the rod tip does not support the weight of the belly (putty) through the moment of stopping, thereby creating less counter flex. Lengthening the overhang “disconnects” the weight of the belly to the rod tip. Changing the overhang within controllable limits, does not affect the major (middle/butt)  loading of the rod. Increases in overhang to the point of induced slack, waves, wrinkles into the line, (and whereby the caster cannot compensate by increasing stroke), detrimentally affects the cast. The goal of changing overhang, is to tighten the loop, maintain full control of the line during false casting (no slack, waves or wrinkles), and to reduce air resistance on the leading edge of the loop and to pierce the air viscosity.

 

Steve

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Steve...   Thanks.  I love the "putty" analogy !  Makes it crystal clear.

Gordy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

MINI QUIZ ON OVERHANG:

1.)  How do you define overhang ?

2.)  It has been taught that overhand can very much affect your student's roll cast. 

                a. Do you agree ?

                b. If you do, tell us how ?

3.)  One author quotes Steve Rajeff on the use of overhang when distance casting.  Who is that ?

4.)  The quote in 3.) states that, "overhang is the barometer for the rate of turnover of the head."

5.)  BRIEFLY explain how that can affect distance casting with a shooting head.

6.)  Do you encourage your "intermediate" casting student to cast with maximum overhang ?

7.)  Why ?

8.)  How do you measure overhang when casting with a CRT (continuous rear taper) fly line ?

9.)  How do you measure it when fishing for pan fish or bass with a level fly line ?

10.)  What happens when you cast with more overhang than you can handle ?

11.)  COUNTERFLEX is discussed in the messages, above.  What is it.

12.)  How does it differ from REBOUND ?.

Gordy